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Pile Shuffling


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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdeg87 wrote:
Someone did out the maths and discovered that pile shuffling in 7's is the best number for randomizing your deck.


There is no such math. Pile shuffling, regardless of the number of piles, doesn't randomize the deck at all. There's absolutely nothing random about it.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "7's" trick is based on 52-card decks and it was 1992 or something. Somewhere magic players heard about it and translated. All the guy said was 7 spread the cards the best compared to any other number of piles. IMO that sounds like stacking.

ALSO: When you're finishing a game there's absolutely no "random" argument behind going land/card/land/card or any other type of weaving.
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tchiseen



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the first game of a match I like to pile-shuffle my opponents decks into 3 piles, because as people build they usually mana-weave in the order of card-card-land. I'd say that the opponent then muls to 6 75% of the time.

I always shuffle my deck properly.
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XMechaShivaX



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i'm building a deck and i'm ready to play i simply pile shuffle 5 rows with the land stack on top of the spells. so after im done pile shuffling i stack the 5 rows in a random order, split and shuffle. gets the lands in between the spells without going card-land-card and so on.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tchiseen wrote:
In the first game of a match I like to pile-shuffle my opponents decks into 3 piles, because as people build they usually mana-weave in the order of card-card-land. I'd say that the opponent then muls to 6 75% of the time.

I always shuffle my deck properly.


shuffling ur opponents deck that way is in fact an attempt to stack their deck. thats illegal and may be considered cheating under almost any judges ruling. the decks must be randomized, if u are attempting to clump their lands, thats distinctly wrong. ur attempting to make their deck not sufficiently randomized. u cant state any case for him getting in trouble at that point as u are cheating. if u believe ur opp isnt shuffling enough, call a judge over. NEVER EVER ATTEMPT TO STACK THEIR DECK BACK.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XMechaShivaX wrote:
when i'm building a deck and i'm ready to play i simply pile shuffle 5 rows with the land stack on top of the spells. so after im done pile shuffling i stack the 5 rows in a random order, split and shuffle. gets the lands in between the spells without going card-land-card and so on.


also here. weaving ur deck so it isnt fully random is illegal. trying to "get" lands between spells is considered attempting to stack your deck and is discouraged. your deck should be fully random. im sure most times if u shuffle enough it breaks ur pattern well, but u should still avoid it.
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Blancoke



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tchiseen wrote:
In the first game of a match I like to pile-shuffle my opponents decks into 3 piles, because as people build they usually mana-weave in the order of card-card-land. I'd say that the opponent then muls to 6 75% of the time.


Lol'led at this.

Maybe 0,5% players do such things (spell spell land) and if they do, mostly you don't have to be afraid cause they suck anyway.

Lol, imagine this would be true. Opp mulliganing 75% of the time, i'm fan!!


Btw, Moscowdemon. You're answer is true, but those things are very hard to prove (that you try to cheat by pileshuffling into 3 stacks).
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blancoke wrote:
tchiseen wrote:
In the first game of a match I like to pile-shuffle my opponents decks into 3 piles, because as people build they usually mana-weave in the order of card-card-land. I'd say that the opponent then muls to 6 75% of the time.


Lol'led at this.

Maybe 0,5% players do such things (spell spell land) and if they do, mostly you don't have to be afraid cause they suck anyway.

Lol, imagine this would be true. Opp mulliganing 75% of the time, i'm fan!!


Btw, Moscowdemon. You're answer is true, but those things are very hard to prove (that you try to cheat by pileshuffling into 3 stacks).


blancoke, of course it's true. im a RL judge and ive discussed this concept with many other judges before. and it is the judges discretion alone as to whether you are attempting to stack their deck. im not sure what case u can make if ur called on it.
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Blancoke



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:
Blancoke wrote:
tchiseen wrote:
In the first game of a match I like to pile-shuffle my opponents decks into 3 piles, because as people build they usually mana-weave in the order of card-card-land. I'd say that the opponent then muls to 6 75% of the time.


Lol'led at this.

Maybe 0,5% players do such things (spell spell land) and if they do, mostly you don't have to be afraid cause they suck anyway.

Lol, imagine this would be true. Opp mulliganing 75% of the time, i'm fan!!


Btw, Moscowdemon. You're answer is true, but those things are very hard to prove (that you try to cheat by pileshuffling into 3 stacks).


blancoke, of course it's true. im a RL judge and ive discussed this concept with many other judges before. and it is the judges discretion alone as to whether you are attempting to stack their deck. im not sure what case u can make if ur called on it.


Yes, I understand that it is the judges ruling and his decision but still I can't imagine that a judge DQ's you for cheating for such matter, because he just has no proves that you are actually intending to stack your opp deck.

So my point being, it probably that somebody tries to stack his opponents deck and you get a dq for it just seems low.

I always pileshuffle in 6 (which is actually the same as 3) just because it's a habbit.

I really find this topic interesting as a pt/ptq player.

But ok, personaly i can't imagine that my opp would ever try to stack my deck but you never know.
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tchiseen



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first, I don't know if you would call it "stacking", when you present to your opponent shouldn't your deck be randomized already? only at higher rels do they MAKE you shuffle your opponents deck. obv I don't do it then.

of course after I pile shuffle I give it a riffle and stuff .

you'd be surprised how many people stack their decks. noobs do it because they don't know its illegal. pros do it because they think its not noticable. and in reality, no judge is going to say a weaved deck isn't just "well randomized". that's why pros get away with it. its cheating and should be punished .
which is why I pile into 3s. and you should too.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tchiseen wrote:
which is why I pile into 3s. and you should too.


The number of piles you use has absolutely no effect on how legal or illegal the action is. Doesn't matter what form of pile shuffling you do, the pile shuffling still does not randomize the deck at all.
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