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Pile Shuffling


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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Pile Shuffling Reply with quote

I was playing in a tournament on Friday doing my usual pile shuffling with 10 stacks, and a guy told me that if you are going to pile shuffle the only legal number of stacks in serious tournaments is 7 because it makes it harder to count the cards.

Is this true?
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never heard of such.....a player may shuffle cards as he wishes as long as he or anyone else cannot see the cards in which he is shuffling. You could stack your deck, as long as you shuffle afterwards and your opponent cuts.
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riledhel



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i personally prefer 7 as it's a prime number, not an even one, so my anti-pattern self is happy Razz
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Official DCI Tournament Rules:
Quote:

3.8 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is
defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of
cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are
legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of
being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to
randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their
cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.
If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is no longer
considered randomized and must be randomized again.
At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents’ decks after
their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well


There is no mention of a specific number one must use when pile shuffling, the guy was just pulling your leg.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's bullshit. It's just as easy to cunt 7 if you are trying to count.

From a judge's standpoint, pile-shuffling is never good. It is not proper randomization so is therefore simply a waste of time. You are either comitting stalling or improper randomization... both of which result in at least a GameLoss. We don't call it generally because the practice is common and if it is accompanied by sufficient randomization and the player is quick- why bother? But it begs the question: "why the fuck are you pile shuffling?!"

Also at REL Competitive, your opponent is required to shuffle your deck too
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I only pile shuffle because it looks suspicious if you are the only one who isn't bothering to do it.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are valid reasons to pile shuffle, even from a judge's perspective. It's useful for making sure you have the right number of cards and also making sure your cards aren't sticking together. It does not in any way randomize a deck, however.

People aren't penalized for stalling or improper randomization when pile shuffling because it isn't necessarily either. If a person is pile shuffling just to waste time and run down the clock, then it would be stalling. If a person pile shuffled as their only means of randomizing the deck, then they haven't properly randomized it. The number of piles used is completely irrelevant. Pile shuffling will accomplish exactly the same thing if you use 3, 5, 7 or any other number of piles. I prefer 5, personally, and I am a judge, and I do pile shuffle every match when I'm playing anything competitive or professional.
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schowilson



Joined: 26 May 2011
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pile shuffle to make sure I gots my 60 cards. Also, after I finish a match I pile shuffle since usually I just scoop up everything that's on the table. My lands and other stuff I had in play and graveyard would be bunched together so I pile shuffle and shuffle some more so my next match I won't have to do it as much to randomize it.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to add that I am a judge and I pile-shuffle by 5, so I can count my deck as I go. I pile once, then mash, riffle, mash, shuffle. The process takes about 50 seconds. Clariaz did touch on reasons to pile and I forgot to, but his answer is fairly complete.
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Blancoke



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, first time I heard that pile shuffling is not a 'legal' method to randomize your deck.

What I have heard is that judges prefer that players shuffle on 2 different ways before a match (For example, pile shuffling and 'rifling' shuffle').

But it's good to know that during a match, when your opponent fetches something and he pile shuffles you can call a judge for it (if it's stalling obv).
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems that i am lucky that i do not play irl
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J_R



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blancoke wrote:
Wow, first time I heard that pile shuffling is not a 'legal' method to randomize your deck.

What I have heard is that judges prefer that players shuffle on 2 different ways before a match (For example, pile shuffling and 'rifling' shuffle').

But it's good to know that during a match, when your opponent fetches something and he pile shuffles you can call a judge for it (if it's stalling obv).


yes judges want you to use multiple shuffling methods to make sure the deck is as randomized as possible, and if your opponent starts pile shuffling during the game then I would instantly call a judge for slow play/stalling because theres no reason to do that especially if they have multiple shuffle effects
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arcannys



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usualy use the 6-5-4-3-2 pile shuffle.
Meaning, you first pileshuffle for 6.
Then you take one of the piles (which will be a mutiple of 5) and pile shuffle onto the other 5 piles.
then take one of the 5 piles (which will be a multiple of 4) and pile shuffle onto the other 4.
And so on..
Then you just shuffle normaly a couple times, and let your opp cut.

This is random enough IMO.

Arcannys~
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rdeg87



Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone did out the maths and discovered that pile shuffling in 7's is the best number for randomizing your deck. Of course everyone who pile shuffles uses it in conjunction with some other type of shuffling, otherwise it is a little suspicious. There was suspicion surrounding some of the japanese players a couple of years ago who only seemed to just pile shuffle in 7's before every game. Nothing was ever proven though

Last edited by rdeg87 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why I always use 56 card decks.
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