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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've gone ahead and stickied this thread, as I feel it's great initiative and a great source of learning for players wanting to improve their rules knowledge Smile I'm also happy to throw in questions from time to time if you like Smile
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, please post some Weedmonkey I was impressed with a lot of your judge test questions.

Here is one for you guys.

The active player is attacking with a Hypnotic Specter and a Mesmeric Fiend (the Mesmeric Fiend exiled a Lightning Bolt when it came into play). The Non-active player is blocking the Mesmeric Fiend with a Raging Goblin.

Will the non-active player get the Lightning Bolt back in his hand before or after the Hypnotic Specter random discard trigger resolves?

Hypnotic Specter
Creature - Specter
Flying
Whenever Hypnotic Specter deals damage to an opponent, that player discards a card at random.
2/2

Mesmeric Fiend
Creature - Nightmare Horror
When Mesmeric Fiend enters the battlefield, target opponent reveals his or her hand and you choose a nonland card from it. Exile that card.
When Mesmeric Fiend leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to its owner's hand.
1/1

Raging Goblin
Creature - Goblin
Haste (This creature can attack and Tap as soon as it comes under your control.)
1/1

Lightning Bolt
Instant
Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
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Terri



Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hypnotic specters ability and mesmeric fiends ability will trigger at the same time so you can choose the order in wich they go on the stack.
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Zagar



Joined: 13 Nov 2010
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once the game reaches the combat damage step all damagae is dealt simultaniously so all creatures die at the same time. Since both Hypnotic Specter's and Mesmeric Fiend's triggered abilities are controlled by the same player (AP) he gets to chose how they are put into the stack.

If AP chooses to put Mesmeric Fiend's trigger on the stack 1st then once both players pass priority Hypnotic Specter's ability will trigger 1st causing the NAP to discard a card at random and the Mesmeric Fiend's second ability triggers causing Lightning Bolt to be return to its owners hand.

If AP chooses to put Hypnotic Specter's ability on the stack 1st then Mesmeric Fiend 2nd ability is automaticlly put last on the stack thus resolving 1st and returning the Lightning Bolt to its owner's hand. Then Hyponotic Specter's ability triggers causing NAP to discard a card at random.



I hope it's not too early to ask another question but here is one that came up at the FNM yesterday.


On player's A main phase he activates a Stirring Wildwood making it a creature and the proceed to equip it with a Batterskull. On the declare attackers step Player A attacks player B with the equipped Stirring Wildwood and a Lotus Cobra. At the end of the declare attackers step Player B casts Act of Aggresion targeting the Stiring Wildwood. During the declare blockers step Player B blocks the Lotus Cobra with Stirring Wildwood.

At the beggining of the next turn's upkeep what is the state of the Stirring Wildwood and who is the controller of both Stirring Wildwood and Batterskull.

Stirring Wildwood
Land
Stirring Wildwood enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {G} or {W} to your mana pool.
{1}{G}{W}: Until end of turn, Stirring Wildwood becomes a 3/4 green and white Elemental creature with reach. It's still a land.

Act of Aggression
Instant, 3{RP}{RP} (5)
({RP} can be paid with either {R} or 2 life.)
Gain control of target creature an opponent controls until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn.

Batterskull
Artifact - Equipment, 5 (5)
Living weapon (When this Equipment enters the battlefield, put a 0/0 black Germ creature token onto the battlefield, then attach this to it.)
Equipped creature gets +4/+4 and has vigilance and lifelink.
{3}: Return Batterskull to its owner's hand.
Equip {5}

Lotus Cobra
Creature - Snake 2/1, 1G (2)
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may add one mana of any color to your mana pool.


As a side note, I would be glad if sb could answer the same question thought this time it is Player's B turn and Player A intents to activate and block with a Stirring Wildwood.
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Terri



Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it doesent matter wich turn it you only gain control of the stirring wildwood and not of the batterskull. act of agression lets you lose control at end of any cleanup step so in your next upkeep you will be neither the controller of the wildwood nor of the batter skull.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations to Farseer for being the first to really go the distance on a rules answer. Magic rules are a lot like a programming language, and knowing one will definitely help you with the other!

Roo: Glad you appreciate what we're trying to do here!

Also, on another note, extra cool points for people who point out what section of the comp. rules a certain ruling applies to.

Cool points may be redeemed at your local participating drug dealer (which is me).
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, two questions then Wink

1) Antoine controls a Painter's Servant (naming White) and a Yawgmoth's Edict. Neo controls Humility. Neo casts Divination. Does Yawgmoth's Edict trigger? Why/why not?

Painter's Servant {2}
|Artifact Creature — Scarecrow|
As Painter's Servant enters the battlefield, choose a color.
All cards that aren't on the battlefield, spells, and permanents are the chosen color in addition to their other colors.
1/3

Yawgmoth's Edict {1B}
|Enchantment|
Whenever an opponent casts a white spell, that player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.

Humility {2WW}
|Enchantment|
All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.

Divination {2U} |Sorcery| Draw two cards.

2) Arcanis controls a Gemstone Caverns with a luck counter on it. Neo controls a Contamination. On the resolution of Gemstone Caverns' ability, what possible color(s) of mana can Arcanis have in his mana pool? Explain your answer.

Gemstone Caverns
|Legendary Land|
If Gemstone Caverns is in your opening hand and you're not playing first, you may begin the game with Gemstone Caverns on the battlefield with a luck counter on it. If you do, exile a card from your hand.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool. If Gemstone Caverns has a luck counter on it, instead add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Contamination {2B}
|Enchantment|
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Contamination unless you sacrifice a creature.
If a land is tapped for mana, it produces B instead of any other type and amount.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen Neo in a while...also, put Ayame-Chan in more rules questions!

Both of these questions deal with permanents overriding the abilities of other permanents. At some point, you get to applying time-stamps and such, but I don't think that's relevant for either of these.

Humility will take away Painter's Servant's ability and make it a 1/1, so when Divination is cast, it will not be a white spell and thus, will not trigger Yawgmoth's Edict.

Contamination's ability will stop Gemstone Mine from creating any mana other than black.

Once again, some one else can explain this further, but in a logical sense, the abilities of both Humility and Contamination alter the game rules, which I believe is called a static ability (and if it isn't, feel free to laugh at me/call me a nub).
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think for the first question the relevant rules are:

Quote:
613. Interaction of Continuous Effects

613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:

613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”

613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.

613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”

613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.

613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.

613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.


The Painter's Servant ability is a Color-changing effect which is applied in Layer 5. The Humility's ability is an Ability-removing effect which is applied in Layer 6. Since Layer 6 is applied after Layer 5, the Painter's Servant would lose all abilities and the Divination would be considered a blue card and not trigger the Yawgmoth's Will.

EDIT:
Weedmonkey says my answer was wrong so we may have to refer to rule 613.10.

Quote:
613.10. Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player’s maximum hand size, or say that a creature is indestructible. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 601.2e. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and 613.7).


If the Painter's Servant's ability is considered to affect game rules then it would be applied after the Humility's continuous effect which would make the Divination be considered a white card and thus trigger the Yawgmoth's Will.


------------------------------------------------------------


I think the second question refers to:

Quote:
112.3d Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true. Static abilities create continuous effects which are active while the permanent with the ability is on the battlefield and has the ability, or while the object with the ability is in the appropriate zone. See rule 604, “Handling Static Abilities.”


Since the Gemstone Caverns is being tapped for mana, it would only be able to produce black mana. However, Contamination only refers to mana produced by lands so mana produced from other sources (like artifacts or spells) would allow Arcanis to have mana other than black in his pool.

EDIT:
The second ability of Contamination, and the ability of Gemstone Caverns with the counter are actually Replacement Effects.

Quote:
614.1a Effects that use the word “instead” are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word “instead” to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can’t be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

614.15. Some replacement effects are not continuous effects. Rather, they are an effect of a resolving spell or ability that replace part or all of that spell or ability’s own effect(s). Such effects are called self-replacement effects. When applying replacement effects to an event, self-replacement effects are applied before other replacement effects.


So now I think the Gemstone Caverns is a "self-replacement" effect which would be applied before the Contamination's replacement effect. Since the Contamination's replacement would happen last, the Gemstone Caverns would only be able to produce black mana.[/quote]


Last edited by magicman85 on Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, first thing: The reason I gave those two particular questions was because they both test areas of knowledge that judges should have a very thorough understanding of. While some areas of knowledge only require knowing a certain rule, others require knowing how to apply them, when to apply them, and under what circumstances the application changes.

magicman85: You're on the right track with that section of the rules applies here Smile However, you've missed how to apply the rule in your first answer.

EDIT: For the second question, a hint would be the use of the word 'instead' on both cards Smile
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So wait, you mean to say that Painter's Servant would be a 1/1 that still makes everything white?

My line of reasoning: In Comp Rules 614, Humility removes the ability of Painter's Servant in layer 6, which is 1 layer after Painter's Servant changes the color of spells, permanents, and rainbows in layer 5.

I'm not stoned enough for this =P
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct eris. Since Painters ability is applied in layer 5 and humility in layer 6, the painter becomes a 1/1 but has still painted all the cards.

The correct layering is

Layer 5: Card changes color due to painter

Layer 6: Painter looses its abilities

Layer 7b: Painter becomes a 1/1
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, so Humility's ability is only relevant to non-continuous effects then.

<do do do do do do do-do>

I have Leveled Up.

Judge knowledge increases by 1.
Speed decreases by 2.
Sexiness stays the same.

I have found 20 gold and a bong of destiny.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris : Not quite. Level down for a moment, until you can explain the interaction of:-


AP casts Blade Splicer. Next turn NAP casts Humility. What are the stats of Blade Splicer *and* the Golem token; why?


Blade Splicer {2W} |Creature - Human Artificer| When Blade Splicer enters the battlefield, put a 3/3 colorless Golem artifact creature token onto the battlefield. / Golem creatures you control have first strike. 1/1

Humility {2WW} |Enchantment| All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's easy: since the Golem both gains and loses an ability in the same layer, you go by timestamp (I don't think this is a dependency issue and neither are characteristic defining). Since Blade Splicer was cast first, it gets the earliest time stamp so First Strike is applied to the Golem first. Next, Humility's ability is applied as it has the later timestamp, therefore turning the Golem into a 1/1 with no abilities.

amirite?
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