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UWG Shaman/Mana denial deck



 
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:50 pm    Post subject: UWG Shaman/Mana denial deck Reply with quote

// Lands
1 [ROE] Evolving Wilds
2 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
2 [SOM] Plains (4)
5 [SOM] Forest (1)
4 [SOM] Razorverge Thicket
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
2 [SOM] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [M11] Acidic Slime
4 [M11] Birds of Paradise
4 [ZEN] Lotus Cobra
4 [M11] Fauna Shaman
4 [M11] Squadron Hawk
2 [ROE] Vengevine
1 [M11] Frost Titan
1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger
1 [SOM] Molten-Tail Masticore

// Spells
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [SOM] Venser, the Sojourner
1 [SOM] Elspeth Tirel
3 [ZEN] Spreading Seas

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Elspeth Tirel
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spreading Seas
SB: 1 [ZEN] Devout Lightcaster
SB: 2 [ZEN] Eldrazi Monument
SB: 3 [M11] Baneslayer Angel
SB: 3 [M11] Celestial Purge
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Vitality

I've been wanting to fit acidic slime and venser into the same deck for a long time, and at the same time play the fauna shaman + vengevine package in a deck that isn't terrible. Not sure if I accomplished this but I fit all the cards together and it seems powerful enough if it draws correctly.

I only run 2 vengevine as you technically don't want to naturally draw them in a couple matchups and searching for them against UW/UB usually only lasts 1 or 2 turns, and once you search for them they stay around barring condemn/journey to nowhere. I wouldn't play just 1 obviously, but I don't really think I have space for 4.

1 frost titan: as the finisher. It adds to the mana denial theme pretty well and with venser gets every deck out of range of their big spell ON TIME.

Masticore: with shaman is pretty standard at this point. I like it as a tutor target late against a grave titan or something so you just go over the top and kill them.

4 jace: Could be maybe less or none at all. I like the hawk-jace interaction a lot, and fauna shaman adds to that. Drawing a fresh hand frequently with this deck keeps you into creatures to ditch or slimes to kill the mana, etc.

3 spreading seas: Seems like an auto-include in this type of deck. It only really is synergistic with venser in the deck and takes away from the creatures smoosh that usually happens in these decks, but at least it cycles. I think 3 maindeck is a fine number. Against valakut hitting just 1 forest could be enough to slow them down so you can win, but against every other deck you don't necessarily want to draw a ton of them, and spots are pretty precious in this deck.

1 Elspeth: seems like a powerful enough card to have one. I like the interaction with monument out of the board. This could be a gideon or a baby jace or just about any powerful card I think. It might be better as another tutor target... Which would technically make more sense but I tend to usually only search for frost titan or slime or if it's a screwjob I get the sylvan ranger.

the lands: I think this can be better. I have a good amount of turn 1 green for birds and the appropriate amount of man-lands for this kind of deck I think. The tech edges could be greedy but again, the mana denial is a theme and I think really good in this format. Good enough to take a consistency hit even.

The way I choose my mana is through counting the colored symbols and then spreading it out based on what is needed, taking into account CMC of the cards and CIPT requirements, etc. I don't understand how people come up with their bases, but this is how I do mine. Not ever sure if it's the correct way.

SB:::::::
Lightcaster: I like the silver bullet against UB/vampires. probably not necessary but I had a spot so Ill just try it out.

Monument: I like it against UW and valakut as a finisher. Might be better maindeck but I have found that I don't ACTUALLY always have a bunch of dudes.

Baneslayer: Vampires and boros and elves, etc. Its been better than most other cards against valakut too, but i dont want too many 5 drops against them.

Leyline: Not sure about this. But getting blown out by arc trail is a real possibility and this stops that cold, as well as being pretty awesome against vampires. It really only saves fauna shaman from pyroclasm... But that's enough, right?

Purges: more against vampires.

I obviously overloaded against vampires more than most probably feel I need to, but since the maindeck is tuned for the control matchups I felt I should gear to beating the aggro deck in the board, and I always want the best answer against it. I'll lose some game against elves by using purges and lightcaster over something like Journey to nowhere or something like that, but I feel elves is just a bad matchup already.

Day of judgement might be OK. Not sure.

Any suggestions are welcome. Flaming is fine also, but it's baseless as I don't intend on taking this to anything important until it works.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like Spreading Seas deserves four slots main in a mana denial deck... It has to be better than running the singleton Elspeth
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GDP



Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your point about only being able to Fauna Shaman one or two times before she dies being why you only run 2 Vengvines is blatantly bad logic.
If you only get to search once, you aren't even going to be able to bin the Vine.
The point of having all four is not to try and go balls to the wall recurring 4 VV's, but that the Fauna/Vine engine is significantly worse/slower if you don't have a VV ALREADY IN YOUR HAND, to discard. You have to use an entire extra turn to search your VV out, when you should have had it to bin from the git go.
Seriously, when you don't have the VV in hand already it is NEVER fast enough. Soooo many turns- yes use it to search up silver bullets too- but wouldn't you rather be discarding a VV to search those up too???
The only games where you will win with VV recursion after you have to take 2 turns before you start doing anything with the engine (one for summoning sickness, one to discard something that has no value in your grave yard to search for VV) are games where you would have won with ANYTHING, seriously.
When you spend that much time on VVs, you might as well just be playing other creatures that do not effectively have double summoning sickness (even though the card says haste)

So to make room cut the Elspeth, she is just random and doesn't do diddly shit good for your deck. Then a Jace could definately go, you are not a control deck and won't really need 4- he is not really integral to your gameplan whatsoever, and your best draws won't even include him (the plan is to beatdown after all)

If you want a white walker, Gideon actually does a whole lot of relevant stuff for you (you have Jaces to protect as well as lots of dudes to set up bad attack phases for you opponent)

Your deck should probably make room for some counters so you can actually interact with the opponent- as is your deck will have a hard time stopping them from doing bigger and better things than you outside of getting lucky with Acidic Slimes- I would suggest some Spell Pierce, as with your curve keeping just U up wouldn't be hard, and you can engineer blowout turns with it since you can still make you aggro plays then timewalk them for U.

Make room for more Tectonic Edge. The last thing you want is to waste spells taking out lands and them just get out from under it. Especially in a deck that uses them often, just think of them as spells and add more.

If you want Spreading Seas to ever do more than take out Manlands or Valakuts, you probably need all four of them so you can actually draw 2 and do some damage to their color base.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDP wrote:
Your point about only being able to Fauna Shaman one or two times before she dies being why you only run 2 Vengvines is blatantly bad logic.
If you only get to search once, you aren't even going to be able to bin the Vine.
The point of having all four is not to try and go balls to the wall recurring 4 VV's, but that the Fauna/Vine engine is significantly worse/slower if you don't have a VV ALREADY IN YOUR HAND, to discard. You have to use an entire extra turn to search your VV out, when you should have had it to bin from the git go.
Seriously, when you don't have the VV in hand already it is NEVER fast enough. Soooo many turns- yes use it to search up silver bullets too- but wouldn't you rather be discarding a VV to search those up too???
The only games where you will win with VV recursion after you have to take 2 turns before you start doing anything with the engine (one for summoning sickness, one to discard something that has no value in your grave yard to search for VV) are games where you would have won with ANYTHING, seriously.
When you spend that much time on VVs, you might as well just be playing other creatures that do not effectively have double summoning sickness (even though the card says haste)

So to make room cut the Elspeth, she is just random and doesn't do diddly shit good for your deck. Then a Jace could definately go, you are not a control deck and won't really need 4- he is not really integral to your gameplan whatsoever, and your best draws won't even include him (the plan is to beatdown after all)

If you want a white walker, Gideon actually does a whole lot of relevant stuff for you (you have Jaces to protect as well as lots of dudes to set up bad attack phases for you opponent)

Your deck should probably make room for some counters so you can actually interact with the opponent- as is your deck will have a hard time stopping them from doing bigger and better things than you outside of getting lucky with Acidic Slimes- I would suggest some Spell Pierce, as with your curve keeping just U up wouldn't be hard, and you can engineer blowout turns with it since you can still make you aggro plays then timewalk them for U.

Make room for more Tectonic Edge. The last thing you want is to waste spells taking out lands and them just get out from under it. Especially in a deck that uses them often, just think of them as spells and add more.

If you want Spreading Seas to ever do more than take out Manlands or Valakuts, you probably need all four of them so you can actually draw 2 and do some damage to their color base.


Your logic on vengevine makes sense I guess, but I wouldn't want a bunch of vengevines in my hand in the case that I don't have a fauna shaman, and that's why I only play 2. If you run 4 and they just bolt the shaman early, you're sitting with a bunch of 4 drops in your hand, etc. I like 2 because you fetch to get one, then ditch it to get the other one and swing for 10 on turn 5-6 against decks that can't kill the shaman. It's just a secondary plan. This isn't really a beatdown deck, because if it was I would probably play a lower curve. You apply pressure and deal with their lands so they can't play their titan or whatever.

Your logic for gideon basically applies to elspeth. If they're activating a man land to attack my jace im going to win, and otherwise there aren't many flying creatures in this format that squadron hawk doesn't trade 1 for 1 for besides maybe kor skyfisher. I think the fact that elspeth works better with venser, but gideon still may be correct. Like I said, not sure.

I like the fact that I don't play any counters. People will assume I do most likely and I can get them to slowroll a spell which would allow me to kill a land probably and get them to not cast it at all. But again mana leak or spell pierce might just be too good not to play. Not many spots to run a ton of them though and playing only like 2 counterspells seems random.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DoomBr1nger wrote:
jonproject wrote:
I feel like Spreading Seas deserves four slots main in a mana denial deck... It has to be better than running the singleton Elspeth


+1


Also, I feel that while Monument is a powerful card, you might end up wishing they were Gideons (or Elspeths if you really like more of them) against aggro matchups because vs control you already manage to get DoJ-immunity by screwing their lands left and right.


Overall I really like the feel of this deck, maybe you can find a spot for Sun Titan, which recurs Fetchlands, TechEdges and just about anything, plus with Venser it makes things even much more disgusting.


Thanks.

I thought 1 sun titan would be fine, but he really doesn't deal with opponents bombs like frost titan does. I wouldn't cut the other titan for it, for sure, but along side it it might be good.

I really never have day of judgement immunity. Spreading seas against UW doesn't really automatically deny them it on time, and slime is more of a post day play seeing as how it costs 5 and all. I really like my UW matchup if my hand comes together because they day away my shaman/cobra/birds stuff and I either play a venser or elspeth or slime right after that and it's basically over for them. The vengevine stuff is just gravy. Monument allows me to have a sort of overrun effect against them and allows me to overextend which i cant rightly do otherwise. It's just such a powerful card that I felt inclusion was necessary. Might be wrong.

I certainly don't think another elspeth would be good. People are telling me to cut it already =/
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonproject wrote:
I feel like Spreading Seas deserves four slots main in a mana denial deck... It has to be better than running the singleton Elspeth


I like just having the 1 to get a forest against valakut mostly. Having multiples isn't really the same for this deck as it is for UW as I'm trying to dually apply pressure against them, while that deck is literally trying to make the game go longer. Some matchups you just don't want it, and it's not like UW or UB where "it's better than more creature destruction" against UW and UB because I have a different plan against those decks. They try and get a man land advantage while I basically don't care about that at all. I cut them outright against anything with blue already in it while those decks usually keep them in. I don't have time to be casting it against non-valakut or non-vampires decks I personally don't think. But again, you might be right. It's such a good card in general.

The top end for elspeth I like. Gives me an out against everything with the +2 then -5 and provides an edge against the effective mirror (which is getting more popular) where they can't attack into it and it just provides infinite card advantage. Plus like I said, it's insane with monument.
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