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Rite of replication With Precursor Golem



 
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Rite of replication With Precursor Golem Reply with quote

quiet_riot wrote:
Simple question.

If I have the golem with the 2 other golems and I play the rite, how many golems should I put into play.

Another Precursor and 4 token golems or only 2 tokens??


I am assuming you cast Rite of Replication targetting Precursor Golem and that the "2 other golems" are the Golem tokens generated by that first Precursor Golem.

---

Rite of Replication will first put a copy of each of the two Golem tokens onto the battlefield.

Then Rite of Replication will put a token copy of Precursor Golem onto the battlefield.

Then the token copy of Precursor Golem will put two Golem tokens onto the battlefield.

Total: 4 colourless Golem tokens and 1 token copy of Precursor Golem.
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Zagar



Joined: 13 Nov 2010
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q: If I control Precursor Golem and his two vanilla buddies and cast two kicked Rite of Replication on one of them, how many Golems do I end up with? The answers I've heard range anywhere from 90 to several million. Which answer is right?

A: It's actually several million. Let's walk through the process. (If math makes your brain hurt, I suggest you skip ahead to the next question now!) The first step is easy. One Precursor Golem sees a spell that targets only a single Golem, so it radiates the spell onto the other two Golems. This creates 10 new vanilla Golems from resolving Rites, 5 new Precursor Golems from resolving Rites, and 10 new vanilla Golems from the 5 new Precursor Golems' enter-the-battlefield ability. So now we have 6 Precursor Golems and 22 vanilla Golems.

The second Rite is where things get ugly. The Rite triggers the spell-copying ability of six Precursor Golems, and each of those abilities resolves separately. When the first ability resolves, it creates a bunch of copies of Rite of Replication. Those copies go on the stack above the remaining spell-copying abilities, so they will resolve and create a boatload of new Precursor Golems and vanilla Golems. Those new Golems will be taken into account by the second spell-copying ability, which will create kicked Rites of Replication for all Golems on the battlefield at that time, and they will spawn even more Golems to be seen by the third spell-copying ability, and so on and so on. In the end, you get the result of six generations of exponential growth, which yields an absurdly large number of Golems.

I'll spare you the detailed calculations, but the result depends on whether you target a Precursor Golem or a vanilla Golem. That's because the original target only gets the original Rite of Replication targeting it, whereas all other Golems get several copied Rites targeting them. You'll end up with 233286 Precursor Golems and 3359242 vanilla Golems if you target a Precursor Golems, while targeting a vanilla Golem yields a total of 279936 Precursor Golems and 3779142 vanilla Golems. In any case, it should be enough to win the game provided that you can use those Golems for something awesome before your opponent finds a Lightning Bolt!

Ouch
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zagar wrote:
Q: If I control Precursor Golem and his two vanilla buddies and cast two kicked Rite of Replication on one of them, how many Golems do I end up with? The answers I've heard range anywhere from 90 to several million. Which answer is right?

A: It's actually several million. Let's walk through the process. (If math makes your brain hurt, I suggest you skip ahead to the next question now!) The first step is easy. One Precursor Golem sees a spell that targets only a single Golem, so it radiates the spell onto the other two Golems. This creates 10 new vanilla Golems from resolving Rites, 5 new Precursor Golems from resolving Rites, and 10 new vanilla Golems from the 5 new Precursor Golems' enter-the-battlefield ability. So now we have 6 Precursor Golems and 22 vanilla Golems.

The second Rite is where things get ugly. The Rite triggers the spell-copying ability of six Precursor Golems, and each of those abilities resolves separately. When the first ability resolves, it creates a bunch of copies of Rite of Replication. Those copies go on the stack above the remaining spell-copying abilities, so they will resolve and create a boatload of new Precursor Golems and vanilla Golems. Those new Golems will be taken into account by the second spell-copying ability, which will create kicked Rites of Replication for all Golems on the battlefield at that time, and they will spawn even more Golems to be seen by the third spell-copying ability, and so on and so on. In the end, you get the result of six generations of exponential growth, which yields an absurdly large number of Golems.

I'll spare you the detailed calculations, but the result depends on whether you target a Precursor Golem or a vanilla Golem. That's because the original target only gets the original Rite of Replication targeting it, whereas all other Golems get several copied Rites targeting them. You'll end up with 233286 Precursor Golems and 3359242 vanilla Golems if you target a Precursor Golems, while targeting a vanilla Golem yields a total of 279936 Precursor Golems and 3779142 vanilla Golems. In any case, it should be enough to win the game provided that you can use those Golems for something awesome before your opponent finds a Lightning Bolt!

Ouch


Credit where credit is due: http://mtgsalvation.com/1248-cranial-insertion-millions-of-golems.html

Also, this had nothing to do with the original poster's question.
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Sprouts



Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what happens if you do this on modo?
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sprouts wrote:
what happens if you do this on modo?


you will probably time out from all the triggers
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Duodax



Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Game crashes^^ Very Happy
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zagar wrote:
Q: If I control Precursor Golem and his two vanilla buddies and cast two kicked Rite of Replication on one of them, how many Golems do I end up with? The answers I've heard range anywhere from 90 to several million. Which answer is right?

A: It's actually several million. Let's walk through the process. (If math makes your brain hurt, I suggest you skip ahead to the next question now!) The first step is easy. One Precursor Golem sees a spell that targets only a single Golem, so it radiates the spell onto the other two Golems. This creates 10 new vanilla Golems from resolving Rites, 5 new Precursor Golems from resolving Rites, and 10 new vanilla Golems from the 5 new Precursor Golems' enter-the-battlefield ability. So now we have 6 Precursor Golems and 22 vanilla Golems.

The second Rite is where things get ugly. The Rite triggers the spell-copying ability of six Precursor Golems, and each of those abilities resolves separately. When the first ability resolves, it creates a bunch of copies of Rite of Replication. Those copies go on the stack above the remaining spell-copying abilities, so they will resolve and create a boatload of new Precursor Golems and vanilla Golems. Those new Golems will be taken into account by the second spell-copying ability, which will create kicked Rites of Replication for all Golems on the battlefield at that time, and they will spawn even more Golems to be seen by the third spell-copying ability, and so on and so on. In the end, you get the result of six generations of exponential growth, which yields an absurdly large number of Golems.

I'll spare you the detailed calculations, but the result depends on whether you target a Precursor Golem or a vanilla Golem. That's because the original target only gets the original Rite of Replication targeting it, whereas all other Golems get several copied Rites targeting them. You'll end up with 233286 Precursor Golems and 3359242 vanilla Golems if you target a Precursor Golems, while targeting a vanilla Golem yields a total of 279936 Precursor Golems and 3779142 vanilla Golems. In any case, it should be enough to win the game provided that you can use those Golems for something awesome before your opponent finds a Lightning Bolt!

Ouch


is this truly correct? I don't believe there's actually any exponential growth here.

when you cast rite of replication, THAT is when the abilities of all the golems trigger. by the time spells start resolving, it's too late for new golems to start gaining triggers.

so once you have 6 precursor golems and 22 vanillas (make sure you cast the second kicked on a vanilla; precursor golem's wording means that the original target always has only one copy of the spell)

this adds up to 6 rites on 6 precursors, adding up to 180 extra precursors, and 6 rites on 21 vanillas plus an extra 5 for the orignal rite, adding up to 635 extra tokens, then the 180 extra precursors generate another 360 extra tokens.

this means you now have 186 precursors and 1016 vanillas.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After the first Rite there are six Precursor Golems and each of them will trigger when a Golem is the target of a spell and create a copy for every golem. So you get six copies of Rite targetting every single Golem in play.
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