Magic-League.com Forum Index Magic-League.com
Forums of Magic-League: Free Online tcg playing; casual or tournament play.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Cockatrice, a new program better then MWS


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Other Software
Author Message
dragonhand



Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Cockatrice, a new program better then MWS Reply with quote

How about a better system then MWS where you dont get beated by 5 turns without a single land draw, hmm, scrue it should I say reach the 45th draw on the deck and having 12 copys of 3 cards still there?, how about drawing having half of your lands into play after 10 draws?

There is a better soft then mws that is working so much better, not only on the sufler issue, that it's a huge one taking the realism of every game, but you wont disconect every 2 min.


Cockatrice works gr8, it does not have much ppl using it so far but its under development, so you can go to there forum and talk to devs. It's an ongoing progect and I belive Magic League should consider using it instead of MWS.

Try it out, the first Link is a tuturial to instal, the 2 one is the site to download. Most of the comands are = to mws so its easy to adapt.



http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1115
http://www.cockatrice.de/
Back to top
Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject: Re: Cockatrice, a new program better then MWS Reply with quote

dragonhand wrote:
How about a better system then MWS where you dont get beated by 5 turns without a single land draw, hmm, scrue it should I say reach the 45th draw on the deck and having 12 copys of 3 cards still there?, how about drawing having half of your lands into play after 10 draws?


If the application can promise this, then its shuffler is NOT RANDOM. Randomization must allow for any mathematically possible scenario, not matter how inconvenient or frustrating. Automated cheating does not sound attractive to me, nor does it help anyone prepare for IRL Magic.

dragonhand wrote:
There is a better soft then mws that is working so much better, not only on the sufler issue, that it's a huge one taking the realism of every game, but you wont disconect every 2 min.


Cockatrice works gr8, it does not have much ppl using it so far but its under development, so you can go to there forum and talk to devs. It's an ongoing progect and I belive Magic League should consider using it instead of MWS.

Try it out, the first Link is a tuturial to instal, the 2 one is the site to download. Most of the comands are = to mws so its easy to adapt.


These things sound OK, but based on the myriad spelling errors here, I have to wonder: Is this application in English?

Kytep
Back to top
FusionFire



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ML will not even entertain this idea mainly for one reason. It's open source therefore it's WAY to easy to manipulate the program and easy to cheat.
Back to top
dragonhand



Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fusion, I understad that part, dunno what could be done to provent that :S

Kytep, you must understand very little about real magic or statistic, cus having to mull in a 53% rate, with more then 1 mul in 24% of those times, in a 457 match's sample is miles from realistic. Those were my last calculations for MWS.

On the same deck, vamp, in 43 matches I had mana scrue/flood in about 50% of the matches, playing mws, using the same deck in real life tournment, during 7 games, over 14 matches, I had scrue/flood twice.


I never said we don't need to mull at all in the new program, we only don't need to mull almost every single game, the draws are that way much closer to a real life situation. You still have to mull and consider your options, but you wont end defeated by the program instead of the player almost every game.


MWS sufler is bad. Simple as that, so at least for test subject these program is way better, as it offer a sufle much closer to magiconline and real life situations.
Back to top
gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its hard to read what you wrote, but mws shuffler is as random as can get for a computer program, the shuffler doesnt decide if u draw lands, maybe you run too many lands, maybe you made a mistake with scry who knows. real life shuffling isnt as random as mws
Back to top
MikeL123



Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragonhand wrote:
Kytep, you must understand very little about real magic or statistic


Sadly, no, it is you who understand very little about statistics. And I suspect there's not much Kytep or anyone else could say to change your mind.
Back to top
tWo



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't get why people complain about the mws shuffler. As far as i know decks are built based on drawing randomly.
(24 lands = 40% etc...)
Back to top
Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i love this fool is using anecdotal evidence to support his statistical facts.
i refuse to switch to any program that claims a better shuffler than mws. i know the prgram and it generatesa rndom CARD (not land/nonland) for each position in your deck 1-60 up to [some higher number] when you press SHUFFLE.

opensource is applicable for cheaters.

in all honesty the only flaw i see in mws is mwsplay that gets overloaded but you can choose to not play there.
i see no beef.
Back to top
dragonhand



Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget comparison between MWS and Cockatrice, compare between real life and mws draws, its simple build a deck, see your top 20 on MWS and your top 20 on a rl deck.

PPl usually don't have much probs in MWS when using draw manipulating systems such as blue draw control, and mana ramp, that takes away the lands from the deck.

Apart from that it is very usual to get mana flood or mana scrue and if you press to see all your deck you will realize that most of the times you have packs of 5 or more lands and packs of 10 or more non lands. It is not situational it happens all the time. It is rare to have "normal" situations.

Just test MWS vs RL.
Back to top
derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MWS is random, rl shuffler is not random.
Back to top
OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, going open source again would be a disaster for the league. End up with idiots with less skill than your average 12 year old top of the league again and getting a degree of respect and recognition from those not in the know that they in no way deserve. Whilst better players get overlooked and have a harder time distinguishing themselves from the mounds of human refuge toping the league.
Back to top
WildCard
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 802
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IRL you pileshuffle to redistribute lands, you may riffle shuffle, or whatever else you may do, but do you do it enough to be perfectly random? no. if your getting land scrwed, up your land count.

there also has been an artile written lately about MTGO and RL standard tourny results, there different, valakut ramp IRL is doing way better then on MTGO, RUG is better on MTGO then IRL.

You always play better with a stacked deck, if not stacked card per card, having the lands distributed evenly is still as good, but i havent seen that option anywhere on magic play applications.
Back to top
NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragonhand wrote:
Forget comparison between MWS and Cockatrice, compare between real life and mws draws, its simple build a deck, see your top 20 on MWS and your top 20 on a rl deck.

PPl usually don't have much probs in MWS when using draw manipulating systems such as blue draw control, and mana ramp, that takes away the lands from the deck.

Apart from that it is very usual to get mana flood or mana scrue and if you press to see all your deck you will realize that most of the times you have packs of 5 or more lands and packs of 10 or more non lands. It is not situational it happens all the time. It is rare to have "normal" situations.

Just test MWS vs RL.


RL you probably shuffle in a way that tries to break up your lands, most people do. This is why high REL events require your opponent to shuffle your deck before every round.
Back to top
dragonhand



Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is common practice to do it by your own choice.
Back to top
Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
MWS is random, rl shuffler is not random.


Exactly. Especially when people mana-weave/pile-shuffle IRL, and thus get smoother mana draws because this is effectively CHEATING. And even those who really, honestly try to randomize their decks IRL won't be able to do as good of a job as MWS because cards stick together during riffle shuffles, so you get big clumps that consistently don't come apart.

MWS is the closest thing to "true" randomness we're ever likely to see, but because it doesn't provide the consistency of RL CHEATING, people complain about it.

Drawing a land every third card is NOT RANDOM - it's stacking a deck in a non-random fashion. Occassionally seeing a land every third card, or occassionally hitting a clump of 5 lands in a row - that's a sign of randomization.

Kytep

PS: I love the "must understand very little about...statistic[s]" comment; I TAUGHT statistical methods to a team in charge of performance analysis for the largest private computer network in the world, and have been using stats for YEARS in my daily job. This from a guy who cries that he has to mulligan in MWS more than when he stacks his deck IRL...wow. Just. Wow.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Other Software All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All content on this page may not be reproduced without consent of Magic-League Directors.
Magic the Gathering is TM and copyright Wizards of the Coast, Inc, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved.


About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy