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Twincasting Twincast


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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your questions:

1. There is no infinite loop here. What you have is an arbitrarily large loop. According to the loop rules, you must choose a number of times to iterate that loop, then you must choose to do something else.

2. The loop you suggest doesn't actually advance the gamestate at all, so even attempting it would get you disqualified for stalling. This loop is akin to tapping Seeker of Skybreak to untap itself. It's a bunch of legal actions, but all it winds up doing is wasting time.

3. I would assume yes.

4. Using this loop, you will never be able to generate more than one copy of Runeflare Trap, as the loop accomplishes nothing more than Twincasting Trap would do.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usda wrote:
The best use for this would be to set up an arbitrarily high number of effects so that you can use a Storm effect and win.


copies dont count for storm
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usda wrote:
Play vs cast. Ick.


Not counting for storm has nothing to do with play vs. cast. It has to do with the fact that the copy created by twincast is not cast, and it's not played. (Casting a spell IS playing it). The copy is placed directly on the stack. Storm counts spells that have been cast, if it's never cast, it doesn't count for storm.
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MotC



Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't know how many more games I've would have won with Tendrils of Agony if storm copies were "casted" and then ups my storm counts infinately...
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Pong_God



Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only real application for this effect is to draw the game out.

I had a friend at Nats qualifiers who was up 1-0 against UW playing Runeflare. In game 2 with 5 minutes left in the round UW taps out and activates 2 colonades and attacks for lethal. He responds like this.

Cast lightning bolt, Cast Twincast targeting lightning bolt, Cast Twincast targeting Twincast, Cast Spell Pierce targeting Lightning bolt.

The UW player didnt have negate so it was teh lulz.
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darkwizard42
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Pong_God...

That situation makes no sense...the resolving of that is so trivial it would take no more than 30 seconds at most...
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkwizard42 wrote:
@Pong_God...

That situation makes no sense...the resolving of that is so trivial it would take no more than 30 seconds at most...


spell pierce resolves countering bolt, 2 twincasts are still on the stack 1 resolves making a copy of twincast on top of that, that copy resolves making another copy on top of the stack etc, doesnt end
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsy wrote:
darkwizard42 wrote:
@Pong_God...

That situation makes no sense...the resolving of that is so trivial it would take no more than 30 seconds at most...


spell pierce resolves countering bolt, 2 twincasts are still on the stack 1 resolves making a copy of twincast on top of that, that copy resolves making another copy on top of the stack etc, doesnt end


This is NOT an infinite loop. It does NOT result in a drawn game. The first twincast, which is the one you're making a copy of, still targets lightning bolt. Each time you make a copy of it, you may choose a new target for your copy. You can repeat this process an arbitrarily large numberof times, but eventually you need to choose differently, either choosing not to change the target, or to change the target to the twincast which is already resolving. EIther way, the loop accomplishes nothing, and as Darkwizard said, should take no more than 30 seconds.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what different spell can you choose to copy? theres no other spells on the stack? or am i missing something obvious cause im retarded
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Twincast makes a copy, it is still on the stack, so you can choose to have the 'new' Twincast target the 'old' Twincast. Then the 'old' Twincast goes to the graveyard and the 'new' Twincast is countered for having an illegal target. Then the 'first' Twincast is also countered because Lightning Bolt is no longer there.

And voila, you still lose. You really can't draw a game with Twincasts.

And, much more easy, the Twincast you're copying is targetting an nonexistant Lightning Bolt. You can choose not to have your copy change the target, so that it's also still targetting the nonexistant Lightning Bolt. Both are countered and you lose.

10/1/2009 The copy will have the same targets as the spell it's copying unless you choose new ones. You may change any number of the targets, including all of them or none of them. If, for one of the targets, you can't choose a new legal target, then it remains unchanged (even if the current target is illegal).
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stack: (lower # is bottom of stack)

1) lightning bolt - target irrelevant
2) twincast - targeting bolt on stack
3) twincast - targeting twincast on stack

this is the current stack. now, spell peirce is cast. spell pierce counters the lightning bolt. this is how it now stands:

1) twincast - illegal target
2) twincast - targeting twincast on stack

twincast resolves. at this point, a NEW twincast is placed onto the stack, with a legal target chosen at this time. there is exactly 1 legal target: the twincast that is still at the bottom of the stack.

1) twincast - illegal target
2) twincast(copy1) - Targeting twincast on stack.

rinse and repeat.


really, guys... sometimes you just gotta break it down step by step.
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WildCard
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 802
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The copy will have the same targets as the spell it's copying unless you choose new ones. You may change any number of the targets, including all of them or none of them. If, for one of the targets, you can't choose a new legal target, then it remains unchanged (even if the current target is illegal).

there is a "may" in choosing new targets. I would love it if you played me in a read tourney, would break my losing streak
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) I did not consider the "may" part of this enough. I had assumed that if the current target is illegal and there are possible legal targets, then you have to change your target. I guess I was wrong.

2) do you really have to add in "you're an idiot and obviously would lose to me in a real tournament" to the end of the argument? all you had to do was point out what i had wrong, like you did, and leave well enough alone.

unless of course you meant "read tourney" literally... then you're just using a very obscure way of saying "learn to read", also unnecessary.

so I guess it just boils down to this: does a legal target have to be chosen when a spell is copied if the current target is illegal?
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