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We need more draft minis so this doesn't happen anymore...


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Alandariel



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject: We need more draft minis so this doesn't happen anymore... Reply with quote

Random M11 netdraft... I open Jace (old one obv) and pass for 1st pick Fireball. 2nd pick Fireball. I get two Companions picks 10-11 pack 1. Look at my ending build... we need more draft minis so that the random population of the site can learn to do so better. Oh, and for the record, pack 3 I opened Jace and passed her again lol. Also, I'm NOT an Incite fan. I promise. Those were 13-14-15 pack 3 lol, no joke.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [M11] Terramorphic Expanse
1 [M11] Dragonskull Summit
9 [UG] Swamp
6 [UG] Mountain

// Creatures
1 [M11] Liliana's Specter
1 [M11] Stone Golem
1 [M11] Canyon Minotaur
3 [M11] Child of Night
1 [M11] Nightwing Shade
1 [M11] Nether Horror

// Spells
2 [M11] Fireball
1 [M11] Mind Rot
2 [M11] Sorcerer's Strongbox
2 [M11] Lightning Bolt
1 [M11] Rise from the Grave
1 [M11] Pyroclasm
1 [M11] Quag Sickness
1 [M11] Lava Axe
1 [M11] Reverberate
1 [M11] Act of Treason
1 [M11] Sign in Blood

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M11] Goblin Piker
SB: 1 [M11] Unholy Strength
SB: 3 [M11] Garruk's Companion
SB: 1 [M11] Merfolk Spy
SB: 1 [M11] Cancel
SB: 1 [M11] Deathmark
SB: 1 [M11] Naturalize
SB: 1 [M11] Armored Cancrix
SB: 1 [M11] Stabbing Pain
SB: 1 [M11] Duress
SB: 1 [M11] Angel's Feather
SB: 3 [M11] Incite
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Stork



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mediocre deck.
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LordLink



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always love posts like this.

First of all your deck is pretty weak and lacking focus, a 1-2 deck in any FNM draft. Maybe 2-1 if you get lucky with your removal.

You have a lot of filler like Canyon Minotaur, Reverbrate and Lava Axe. Your 8 creatures means you are completely incapable of setting up an aggro curve and so you have a bunch of reach in your deck that isn't going to matter. So basically you need to adopt a control role in every game where nightwing shade is about your only win condition. If your opponent drops any kind of bomb then you have precisely 2 cards in your deck capable of answering it, the 2 fireballs and you seem to be leaning on those pretty heavily on those to go at the face if the shade dies (or you don't draw it). The funny thing is it doesn't even have to be a bomb, what do you do against... a Rotting Legion? or a Berserkers of Blood Ridge? or a Spined Wurm? or a Harbor Serpent? or whatever fat you care to name.

Which means the only point left is that you're angry at 10th and 11th pick Garruk's Companion which I can't see the problem with. Obviously that is late but the companion is only good in green-based aggro decks which clearly no-one was drafting. That is a fault with people valuing blue or black control based archetypes too highly and not willing to jump into green, but then many pro players do that and not just netdraft randoms.

But in the end I agree with you, haven't been on netdraft since P1P10 Djinn of Wishes P1P11 Air Elemental.

*In the tradition of xkcd
-Summer Glau
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lovehater



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:50 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Your deck isnt that good =( you have good removal but the rest and as Lordlink said you have 2-3 fillers =P


Edit:Making more minis wont solve the lack of skill of people , non skilled playrers will join minis as well

Speaking of abused drafts on here look this.


// Lands
10 [UG] Island
7 [UG] Plains

// Creatures
1 [M11] AEther Adept
1 [M11] Goldenglow Moth
1 [M11] Augury Owl
1 [M11] Scroll Thief
1 [M11] Tireless Missionaries
1 [M11] Palace Guard

// Spells
1 [M11] Condemn
3 [M11] Call to Mind
4 [M11] Tome Scour
2 [M11] Jace's Erasure
2 [M11] Temple Bell
2 [M11] Ice Cage
1 [M11] Day of Judgment
1 [M11] Jace Beleren
1 [M11] Safe Passage

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M11] Goldenglow Moth
SB: 1 [M11] Gargoyle Sentinel
SB: 1 [M11] Mana Leak
SB: 2 [M11] Flashfreeze
SB: 1 [M11] Viscera Seer
SB: 1 [M11] Hunters' Feast
SB: 2 [M11] Autumn's Veil
SB: 1 [M11] Goblin Tunneler
SB: 1 [M11] Naturalize
SB: 1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger
SB: 1 [M11] Brindle Boar
SB: 1 [M11] Hornet Sting
SB: 1 [M11] Phantom Beast
SB: 1 [M11] Dragon's Claw
SB: 1 [M11] Greater Basilisk
SB: 1 [M11] Holy Strength
SB: 1 [M11] Siege Mastodon
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Stork



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You like the mill archetype huh?

However, this was my best draft deck so far (in 5 drafts):

// Lands
1 [M11] Dragonskull Summit
1 [UG] Swamp
9 [UG] Forest
6 [UG] Mountain

// Creatures
2 [M11] Spined Wurm
1 [M11] Prized Unicorn
1 [M11] Duskdale Wurm
1 [M11] Stone Golem
1 [M11] Inferno Titan
1 [M11] Sacred Wolf
1 [M11] Elvish Archdruid
1 [M11] Runeclaw Bear
1 [M11] Yavimaya Wurm
1 [M11] Berserkers of Blood Ridge
1 [M11] Acidic Slime
1 [M11] Giant Spider
1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger

// Spells
2 [M11] Cultivate
1 [M11] Doom Blade
1 [M11] Brittle Effigy
1 [M11] Giant Growth
3 [M11] Lightning Bolt
1 [M11] Assassinate
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done too many drafts to recall exactly what I got each pick, but I have had...

6 quag sickness in a mono black deck ;
2 baneslayer's and 1 day of judgement ;
3 Garruk's Packleader ;
13 UW fliers that curve from 2 to 5
more than 1 crystal ball at least a dozen times.

Every single deck I just posted is a lot more powerful than any of the one's i've seen so far, and I only remember small portions of the deck. I've never opened any titan but Primeval (worst by far) and no Ancient Hellkite, Angelic, Platinum, or anything else uber-bomblike other than the dubs baneslayer draft.

Elixir of Immortality is enough to make me not draft mill. People pick and play that card maindeck. Granted you can MILL it before they get it, but if you don't...You're going to lose.

Also guy who made the mill deck...Mana leak makes the cut 100% of the time.

Saying any deck with 8 creatures no bombs is broken is blasphemy.
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TacoMaster



Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 Swamp
6 Island
1 Terramorphic Expanse

2 Nantuko Shade
1 AEther Adept
1 Azure Drake
1 Barony Vampire
1 Black Knight
1 Cloud Elemental
1 Gravedigger
1 Howling Banshee
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Rotting Legion
1 Stone Golem
1 Reassembling Skeleton

2 Assassinate
2 Corrupt
1 Doom Blade
1 Mana Leak
1 Mind Rot
1 Negage
1 Whispersilk Cloak

I enjoyed this deck a lot.
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Alandariel



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 217

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mass removal: Fireball x2, Pyroclasm, Lightning Bolt x2, Quag Sickness

Hand destruction: Specter, Mind Rot

CA: Strongbox x2, Sign in Blood

Good targets (of mine) for Reverb: Big Fireball, Pyroclasm = Wrath, Bolt for 6 ftw, Axe for 10 ftw, Recur two with Rise, Steal two big guys and swing ftw with Treason, all of these can be win cons or cause extreme advantage...

If my opp discards anything decent with Mind Rot or Specter I can recur it. If I kill a big guy via FB, Quag, etc I can recur it. With so much CA I *will* draw my Shade before I lose to even the fastest aggro in the format...

In the meantime their creatures are dying and mine are getting through or drawing out removal before my Shade tables.

I've been drafting for an extremely long time, and I place in practically every draft I enter. And the playgroup at my store is pretty legit, one of them is up there in the state rankings pretty far. You don't see the synergy here until you play with/against it, mostly because you're just bad. This deck is sick and these replies simply reinforce my original point. The quality of drafters on this site is moot and without more minis to get these newbs some practice it will stay the same way.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the thing people have problems with is the 3 child of the night lava axe and, act of treason are pretty poor in your deck. Its got some weak cards in but the deck has a good plan but its not what I would call amazing to many shitty cards for that.
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Alandariel



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 217

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how Treason is bad when I don't have any huge bombs. I remove all their little guys and try to beats with CoN and hopefully another guy or two and either burn them out (reverb helps here with axe and ball) or Treason their bomb once they drop it (again reverb helps here if i've been holding it long enough) and swing out ftw.

Like I said... the deck works better in practice than theory, you would just have to play with it to see.

For an update, my latest "mediocre" deck. The pool wasn't so great but my p3 went like this:

Pick 1: Obstinate Baloth
Pick 2: Cudgel Troll
Pick 3: Garruk's Packleader
Pick 4: Yavimaya Wurm
Pick 5: Duskdale Wurm
Pick 6: Greater Basilisk
Pick 7: Spined Wurm
Pick 8: Greater Basilisk
Pick 9: Cloud Elemental

It was a pretty obscene pack. Which is good because I was screwed into picking a weak splash had that not happened.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
8 [UG] Island
9 [UG] Forest

// Creatures
1 [M11] Garruk's Packleader
1 [M11] Stone Golem
2 [M11] Cloud Elemental
2 [M11] Phantom Beast
2 [M11] Wall of Frost
3 [M11] Greater Basilisk
1 [M11] Duskdale Wurm
1 [M11] Cudgel Troll
1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
2 [M11] Yavimaya Wurm
1 [M11] Spined Wurm

// Spells
1 [M11] Giant Growth
2 [M11] Warlord's Axe
1 [M11] Mind Control
1 [M11] Jace Beleren
1 [M11] Ice Cage

// Sideboard
SB: 5 [UG] Island
SB: 5 [UG] Forest
SB: 1 [M11] Child of Night
SB: 1 [M11] Nightwing Shade
SB: 1 [M11] Stabbing Pain
SB: 1 [M11] Berserkers of Blood Ridge
SB: 1 [M11] Demolish
SB: 1 [M11] Merfolk Spy
SB: 1 [M11] Assault Griffin
SB: 1 [M11] War Priest of Thune
SB: 2 [M11] Brindle Boar
SB: 1 [M11] Ornithopter
SB: 2 [M11] Wurm's Tooth
SB: 2 [M11] Viscera Seer
SB: 1 [M11] Autumn's Veil
SB: 1 [M11] Tome Scour
SB: 1 [M11] Armored Cancrix
SB: 1 [M11] Demon's Horn
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Alandariel



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 217

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SugarShark wrote:
you might want to consider drafting a curve :/
things that cost less than 4 mana..

llanowar elf?
cultivate?
something to not roll over to fliers like giant spider
perhaps you've heard of him from the "best creatures in Magic" thread
plummet etc
wall of frost is pretty horrible for your fattie deck, that awful wall of wood w/reach would be better and its like a 14th pick card.

those axes are horrible in here (almost anywhere)


Either that was a troll or you don't win drafts irl very often.

I like it when my cards are always live. As in, I don't end up drawing a Cultivate when I have 10 lands or Llanowar Elves like 15 turns in when I need to topdeck a big guy. Wall of Frost is never horrible, *especially* in a fattie deck like this where I can just survive the first few turns then start dropping big dudes, hopefully with a Packleader out there to cantrip and keep constant pressure... no deck can deal with that. They have to remove the Packleader, if they don't take out the Wall first. This leaves me open for Yavimaya, Duskdale to survive. Cloud Elementals don't roll over to flyers imo. If (when, because I will) I make it to turn 5 I drop a big guy every turn for the rest of the game. That's a pretty big deal. Warlord's Axe means my Tramplers trample harder, my CEs become big clocks, my Walls kill stuff... MC their bomb and it's game over man. Oh, and CA wins drafts.

My latest draft deck... more lols than anything but it won. I didn't feel that it was that strong but it worked out better than I thought. 6/6 Protean Hydra... Destructive Force and <System> Player Lost. The Arc Runners... yeah I changed my mind on the benefits of their synergy with Packleader as opposed to just being a bad card and cut them for more bad but slightly more useful bad cards to curve out. Again... it still won.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
10 [UG] Forest
8 [UG] Mountain

// Creatures
2 [M11] Garruk's Packleader
1 [M11] Duskdale Wurm
2 [M11] Cudgel Troll
3 [M11] Runeclaw Bear
1 [M11] Spined Wurm
1 [M11] Protean Hydra
1 [M11] Greater Basilisk
2 [M11] Sacred Wolf
1 [M11] Canyon Minotaur
1 [M11] Ancient Hellkite
1 [M11] Fauna Shaman
1 [M11] Garruk's Companion

// Spells
2 [M11] Destructive Force
1 [M11] Whispersilk Cloak
1 [M11] Sorcerer's Strongbox
1 [M11] Giant Growth

// Sideboard
SB: 5 [UG] Forest
SB: 5 [UG] Mountain
SB: 1 [M11] Siege Mastodon
SB: 1 [M11] Chandra's Spitfire
SB: 2 [M11] Naturalize
SB: 1 [M11] Brindle Boar
SB: 1 [M11] Demolish
SB: 1 [M11] Merfolk Spy
SB: 1 [M11] Assassinate
SB: 2 [M11] Wall of Vines
SB: 4 [M11] Arc Runner
SB: 2 [M11] Unholy Strength
SB: 1 [M11] Stabbing Pain
SB: 1 [M11] Combust
SB: 2 [M11] Fog
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

winning on netdraft doesnt mean anything
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LordLink



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you're a fine drafter that wins his fair share.

I just don't think you have the right to mock the average netdraft player when your decks have been average at best. Theres nothing scandalous in any of your points.

I also think you're misunderstanding the concept of your role in a match and devoting each card to supporting that role. Act of Treason and Lava Axe are both fine cards that, if you curve out, will prevent an opponent from stabilising.
If you play a single creature then there is no chance that they will be on low enough life to burn them out.

So your first deck:
Heavy control, lot of card draw and removal. Susceptible to bombs and fat, lacking win conditions.

Your second green deck.
Decent curve, heavy fat. Susceptible to evasion. Susceptible to bombs.


Now this is what draft decks are all about, each has a plan and these plans have strength's and weaknesses. What in gods name is so obscene and overpowered about these decks?
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Vesti



Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: sickest M11 draft ever Reply with quote

1x glacial fortress
8x island
8x plains
3x stormfront pegusus
4x cloud elemental
2x water elemental
3x diminish
2x preordain
2x blinding mage
3x pacifism
1x air servant
2x 4/5 illusion guy
(some other fat)

I got this at a prerelease, the people at my city don't know how to draft. My curve ended at 4 and I always just stomped face
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Alandariel



Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 217

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsy wrote:
winning on netdraft doesnt mean anything


Sigh. That's what this entire topic is about.

LordLink wrote:
I'm sure you're a fine drafter that wins his fair share.

I just don't think you have the right to mock the average netdraft player when your decks have been average at best. Theres nothing scandalous in any of your points.

I also think you're misunderstanding the concept of your role in a match and devoting each card to supporting that role. Act of Treason and Lava Axe are both fine cards that, if you curve out, will prevent an opponent from stabilising.
If you play a single creature then there is no chance that they will be on low enough life to burn them out.

So your first deck:
Heavy control, lot of card draw and removal. Susceptible to bombs and fat, lacking win conditions.

Your second green deck.
Decent curve, heavy fat. Susceptible to evasion. Susceptible to bombs.


Now this is what draft decks are all about, each has a plan and these plans have strength's and weaknesses. What in gods name is so obscene and overpowered about these decks?


You didn't read any of my points... you either tl;dr'd them, have a serious lack in the reading comprehension department, or you're just bad at limited. As for my decks, refer to the previous sentence. My first deck is susceptible to bombs and fat? Yet my deck has lots of removal including two Fireballs? Nice logic. And for the record, when I only play one creature (which never happened by the way) I still win because one creature is a lot better than the no creatures my opponent has when I 3-for-1 with FB then Act of Treason his "Big Red Flyer Guy That Deals One Damage To A Creature Per Red Mana When You Attack With Him" for the win. (Probably would have taken less time to look him up than type that all out, let alone this explanation, especially since I know I had one in one of the decks I've posted)

So, how do you expect my one creature (hypothetically speaking as I usually tabled at least two) to not deal enough damage to put them in burn range of some combination of Fireball, Lava Axe, and Reverberate?

I digress...

My blue-green deck is susceptible to bombs? Read Mind Control. Evasion? As in a flyer staring at a 6/4 Cloud Elemental? I'm pretty sure my big ass dudes will out damage a 2/1 or even 3/2 flyer considering they'll be held off and (at worst) traded 1 for 1 with my CE(s). Again I digress.

I never stated that my drafts spawn the best draft decks ever imagined. I was just showing that they are all extremely strong due to being passed cards that shouldn't have been passed to me at all, let alone as early as pack 1 pick 3. And as much as I'd love to say, "well, it could have been a strong pack," I know that not every pack is as overpowered as the constant first picks that are shipped to me picks 2 through 8 or 9, sometimes even later.

All I'm saying is that the overall quality of the drafters on M-L is quite low. My shop has a pretty high skill curve, so maybe my expectations are a little high. But if you think that the drafters here are worth their weight in dirt you're either a fool, a troll, or both. Draft minis would give these players more opportunity to hone their skills in a setting where they could play against that ridiculous bomb they passed pack 1 because it didn't fit their colors after one pick.
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