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Planeswalker Ability question



 
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Clarinetist



Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Planeswalker Ability question Reply with quote

Hey all,
I used to play Magic ~5 years ago, discovered Magic-League, and am trying to get back into it just for fun. I was playing someone online just now, and there were a couple of scenarios where I questioned whether rules were being followed to a t. I wanted to see if I'm simply remembering rules incorrectly, or if I was in fact right:

1.) If I attack with a creature (i.e. Putrid Leech), when is the last possible opportunity for me to pump it and do 4 damage to my opponent, and when is the latest possibly opportunity for an opponent to exile my creature and prevent damage from going on the stack? I was under the impression that I could pump after blockers were declared, and the opponent would then have to take the "pumped" damage, regardless of whether my creature was then exiled. Is my understanding incorrect?

2.) Let's say my opponent taps out and plays Jace, TMS. He activates Jace's +2 ability, and in response I bolt Jace. Shouldn't this kill Jace? I'm most unfamiliar with planeswalker rules, but I was under the impression that Jace would take the 3 damage, lose the 3 loyalty and hit the graveyard before his own ability resolved, as 0 loyalty-pw death is a state-based effect. Again, am I just completely wrong on this?

Thanks,
R
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Rikets



Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not sure about question 1 but damage isnt on the stack anymore.
and for question 2 no he has priority jave would get the 2 counters then lose 3
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DARKING
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 256

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Planeswalker Ability question Reply with quote

Clarinetist wrote:
Hey all,
I used to play Magic ~5 years ago, discovered Magic-League, and am trying to get back into it just for fun. I was playing someone online just now, and there were a couple of scenarios where I questioned whether rules were being followed to a t. I wanted to see if I'm simply remembering rules incorrectly, or if I was in fact right:

1.) If I attack with a creature (i.e. Putrid Leech), when is the last possible opportunity for me to pump it and do 4 damage to my opponent, and when is the latest possibly opportunity for an opponent to exile my creature and prevent damage from going on the stack? I was under the impression that I could pump after blockers were declared, and the opponent would then have to take the "pumped" damage, regardless of whether my creature was then exiled. Is my understanding incorrect?

2.) Let's say my opponent taps out and plays Jace, TMS. He activates Jace's +2 ability, and in response I bolt Jace. Shouldn't this kill Jace? I'm most unfamiliar with planeswalker rules, but I was under the impression that Jace would take the 3 damage, lose the 3 loyalty and hit the graveyard before his own ability resolved, as 0 loyalty-pw death is a state-based effect. Again, am I just completely wrong on this?

Thanks,
R


1.- The last possibly moment, in both cases, is during the declare blockers step, after blocked have been declared. If you pump your leech there, priority will pass again, and the opponent can exile your creature. Damage is not assigned until the next step, the combat damage step. If the leech is not there when that step begins, if would assign no damage.

2.- Yes, you are awfully wrong. The important part is that adding or removing counters are part of the cost. And, with all cost, no player can respond to the costs being paid. By the time the ability goes to the stack, and you get a chance to respond, Jace has already 2 more counters on it.
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SidMeier



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damage no longer uses the stack. Also, using the pump ability would give your opponent a chance to respond to it before it resolves and so they would always have a chance to kill it before it became a 4/4.

Adding counters is part of the cost of using planeswalker abilities so it happens even before the ability goes on the stack. And so you would never have priority to play a spell until that ability goes on the stack.
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Clarinetist



Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks much for the replies.

I simply wasn't thinking about the +2 counters as the "cost" for the effect, hence my confusion! Now that I think of it that way, I see how silly my original question was.

However, re: my first question, when damage was on the stack, there used to be a way to pump a creature in such a way that it would be impossible to prevent damage from being assigned, correct? I distinctly remember this happening to me on multiple occasions at tournaments I played, but it could have just been me getting duped.
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DARKING
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 256

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarinetist wrote:
Thanks much for the replies.

I simply wasn't thinking about the +2 counters as the "cost" for the effect, hence my confusion! Now that I think of it that way, I see how silly my original question was.

However, re: my first question, when damage was on the stack, there used to be a way to pump a creature in such a way that it would be impossible to prevent damage from being assigned, correct? I distinctly remember this happening to me on multiple occasions at tournaments I played, but it could have just been me getting duped.


Combat damage no longer uses the stack. This was changed about 1 year ago, with M10. Now, when combat damage step begins, damage is assigned and then dealt, all before players get a chance to do something.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The questions are now answered, but I wanted to add that both questions are actually about the same thing: priority.


When your opponent plays Jace, you get a chance to respond as soon as he passes priority to you. If you pass on this opportunity, Jace resolves. It is still his priority, so he can activate the +2 ability and since it is a cost, the +2 part can't be responded to. With the ability on the stack, he now passes priority to you and you can respond.

Similarly, when you attack with Putrid Leech, you assign it as an attacker and pass priority. The opponent can now assign blockers. Regardless of whether he assigns one or not, when he passes priority back, you can play spells and activated abilities including pumping the Leech. However, if you do, you have to pass priority back to him again before they resolve and then he can respond. Then, when you declare damage step, you pass priority and once the stack is clear (or he passes), the damage step begins and damage is dealt.

... you already know this now but I hope that the new perspective can help clearing things up further. I really hope that all the details and terminology is correct Razz
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Jace's ability will resolve anyways. Even if you destroy it. Just in case.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I deleted a bunch of posts here. Try to keep it civil and stick to asking & answering questions, please.

Also, Clarinetist, you could never do what you want to do. Not with damage on the stack and not before the stack.

You were always able to respond to the Leech ability and you have to use the ability before damage is assigned. So if you pump him, they can exile/destroy him before that pump takes effect and before you deal damage.


Last edited by Hardtrack on Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeph wrote:
And Jace's ability will resolve anyways. Even if you destroy it. Just in case.


Yes that counts for all activated abilities.
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UWMeatshield



Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To to be clear:

If my opponent plays Jace, he has priority after Jace resolves.
He can then use that priority to use the +2 ability.
Since that is the cost, Jace is at 5. I now have priority.
If I bolt Jace is still at 2.


Case 2?
Let us say my opponent plays Jace.
He then casts a sorcery, or some other instant, leaving Jace at 3.
This passes priority to me. Can I respond to this other ability by nuking Jace with my lightning bolt?
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UWMeatshield wrote:
To to be clear:

If my opponent plays Jace, he has priority after Jace resolves.
He can then use that priority to use the +2 ability.
Since that is the cost, Jace is at 5. I now have priority.
If I bolt Jace is still at 2.


Yes

UWMeatshield wrote:

Case 2?
Let us say my opponent plays Jace.
He then casts a sorcery, or some other instant, leaving Jace at 3.
This passes priority to me. Can I respond to this other ability by nuking Jace with my lightning bolt?


Yes, remember PWs abilities are Sorcery speed
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