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Rise of WW Emeria Control?


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks

How good is this deck/concept?
Tier 1 - has decent to good chances of winning tourneys/trials/etc.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Tier 1.5 - close to being a top deck. But not good enough.
55%
 55%  [ 5 ]
Tier 2 - can win quite well but has a few matchups where it just dies.
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Tier 3 - fail.
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 9

Author Message
loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Rise of WW Emeria Control? Reply with quote

After messing with caesarthehun's deck post about WW lifegain, I have come to the realization the WW Control is really strong with the release of Rise of the Eldrazi.

    My list is not going to be perfectly tuned yet, but I think it is developing into a solid deck. Any help would be appreciated.
Very Happy

The greatest part is you have crazy card draw and life gain early, which make it very easy/possible for you to get into the late game -- where you want to be. White... with advantage cards!! Not just KotWO!

And another plus, is the lack of dependence on Day of Judgement.

Quote:

Survival Cards from RoE:

    Wall of Omens - 2 mana draw, stall, wall. With a WoO in the grave and 7 plains + Emeria, you are drawing 2 cards for turn.

    Lone Missionary - 2 mana stall, life gain, dude. +4 life on a 2/1 stick is like a cheap Kitchen Finks that already died once. And he can be pulled with Emeria.

    Survival Cache - 3 mana - gain 4 life over 2 turns. Draw cards if your life is high. With life gain and opponents goldfishing/playing taplands early or using fetches, this can be pulled off.

    Gideon - Saves you some lifepoints, and helps get your recursive dudes in the grave. Also locks out creature decks. And, a huge dude when you need him.


Weakness of WW Control: Easy to color-hate. A bit low on the removal. Slow.

Enough blabbering. Here's my current list:
Quote:
WW Emeria Control
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Emeria, the Sky Ruin
19 [ZEN] Plains (Cool

// Creatures
4 [M10] Baneslayer Angel
4 [ALA] Knight of the White Orchid
4 [ROE] Wall of Omens
4 [ROE] Lone Missionary
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [ZEN] Felidar Sovereign

// Spells
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [ROE] Survival Cache
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [ROE] Gideon Jura
2 [CFX] Martial Coup
3 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
SB: 3 [WWK] Kor Firewalker
SB: 2 [CFX] Wall of Reverence
SB: 2 [ZEN] Devout Lightcaster
SB: 1 [M10] Silence
SB: 2 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre


SB Notes: Silence is really good against Jund Turn 3 and 4, or whenever. Ulamog works well against other control decks, Malakir Bloodwitch, and mill decks. O-Ring #4 and Firewalkers come in against appropriate matchups. The rest (and Ulamog) is really up for grabs, as I'm not sure what fits best - what I actually would need. Brave the Elements was cut for better cards, but it could go in the side for against Vampires and Jund.

Testing:
I'm still way in the phase of testing. But it has preformed extremely well in testing so far. By which I mean it seems to be very competitive. Mainly, I've tested with Jund, BossNaya, and BigBant. It seems pretty happy against Jund as Silence, Wall of Omens, and Survival Cache are all pretty hatey early, and Emeria>Jund Late game as far as advantage goes. Boss Naya usually has a Terrible G2 if it tries to aggro swarm, and a long drawn out loss if it tries to Collar up a Sparkmage. Big Bant seems to come down to the amount of removal and card draw I get. In all the matches, if I survive till I get an Emeria online, I seem to win. And so far, this deck seems to stall well. I'm gonna try to test this against Boros and RDW next.

It seems to have a breaking point, and can be overwhelmed, but it tries hard to survive. If I ever get to the point where Survival Cache stops drawing me cards, I'm usually in trouble (except due to a T1 Goblin Guide). I may decide to maindeck another Martial Coup. I've never been sad to have one yet. Probably means I need more. And Feldir Soverign should probably swap for Iona #2. Feldir is a castable body at 6 mana, who I might keep in my starter, but Iona is just a better threat/answer/topdeck.


Comments? Suggestions? I'd like to make this deck rock.
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eternal42



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems like 23 lands is a bit low in an deck needing 8 lands out to compete
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-3 Silence, +3 Lands. I'm not here for arguments on whether or not I think Silence is constructed playable, but you simply moar need lands, and Silence is the obvious cut.
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caesarthehun



Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm telling you right now that 26 lands is ridiculous. I have tested 23 over and over and it works just fine. People think this is emeria WW, it is not. Emeria is just icing to the cake.

Silence is timewalk vs at least three of the top tier decks and many more. Period.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caesarthehun wrote:
I'm telling you right now that 26 lands is ridiculous. I have tested 23 over and over and it works just fine. People think this is emeria WW, it is not. Emeria is just icing to the cake.

Silence is timewalk vs at least three of the top tier decks and many more. Period.


Bullshit. Period.
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wizmo



Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so oust is really good.. you should fit in 2-3. T1 ousting a stepp lynx or the like is great, esp with a wall or a knight in the pocket. drawing that awsome turn 1 dude on t3 is pretty bad for their tempo.


i am also a big fan of the scepter of dominance. i also think that playing more DoJ and coupe is far better than bad 2/1 critters
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Oop



Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caesarthehun wrote:

Silence is timewalk vs at least three of the top tier decks and many more. Period.


I lol'd....

a lot...
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SaTiVa
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinda funny a friend of mine played a WB control deck at our wed t2 this week he had the black for identity crisis in the board, that rebound edict main deck and he played abysall persecutor as another win con next to BS angel too .. but other than that the lists look really close .. silence seems horrid i agree with others and elspeth + gideon is very strong if they both are out
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the deck needs more lands, there is no argument as others have said, its not like its card analysis here. You are not playing enough land for your curve.
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of land, 23 may be too few. But I think 26 is way too many. This deck runs 12 2 drops, 8 of which can help you find land sooner. And a 3 drop that, most of the time, helps you find land too.

Wall of Omens, Survival Cache, and Knight of the White Orchid get you there. You really only need two lands for this deck to get going. You will find more. I can run some tests comparing 23 vs. more land, but it really seems to get there against Jund and Naya.

If I were to use 26, I'd use fetchlands too, I think. There's also the PtE your own dude at EOT to get Emeria online with a Wall of Omens.



And all kidding aside, against Jund and Naya, in this deck, Silence is a half-time walk turn (3 or) 4. It always is going to prevent something good. If it isn't, they kept a bad hand. Although most people think Silence is janky, I believe it works here. Sure you may time walk into nothing more than another land. But you might get another land and a Wall and a card. Regardless of what you do with your extra turn... with each new turn, your opponent's chances decrease significantly. (If they are aggro - yet to test control matchups.)

I may be clinging too hard to Silence, but I'm not sure it is an obvious swap for land.
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to all of you that voted "fail" or "loses to certain matchups", which matchups do you forsee as the toughest?

I'd like to test those out.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Silence prevents something good one turn, but if they already have a threat on the board it does nothing. It is a Fog for spells and is absolutely useless except in combo decks that needs to protect the combo the turn it goes off - and even there it is a questionable addition. It is fair enough that you get one turn extra, but so do they, and in the case of Jund (which runs 27 lands) they have a much higher chance of actually drawing that land and building up that advantage than you do, and you have used a spell for nothing in that case. Silence is card disadvantage. It is a terrible topdeck. It does not affect the board, nor does it affect the hand - in short it doesn't affect anything at all.

Yes the card is that bad.

If a card is not a resource, not a threat, not an answer and/or neither affect the battlefield nor the hand/library/graveyard - do NOT use that card.

If you miss a land drop -ever- , you are one turn behind in this kind of deck. Granted, Wall of Omens and Knight of the White Orchid helps, but you cannot rely on 2-land opening hands even with those cards in it, because even if you get the third and fourth land in the first 3-4 turns, that is 5-6 too few for you to win. Such an opening translates to you digging 20 cards deeper into your deck to get the mana you need to win. If you need half your deck to win, you will A)not win, B)not win in time in a tournament.

I have said it many times before: do NOT try to MINIMIZE the amount of lands in your deck. Instead MAXIMIZE that amount. This does not mean that there is not an upper limit for how many lands there can be in a given deck, but in the OPTIMALIZATION process it is better to start out with so much land that you reduce the amount of mana screws and land drop failure to the minimum. And then take out land and do other tweaks to perfect the deck based on observations in testing.

It is a natural thing to assume that once you start drawing lands in topdeck mode land is bad. This is not the case. Rather, it is either a deckbuilding weakness or play mistake or two that are the reasons for your situation: being in need of more cards. A beginner would use all his resources to clear the path for his 2/2 bear and keep his life as close to 20 as possible. Looking at that in hindsight, this beginner would certainly be very frustrated at losing because he could draw nothing but land the last 2 turns of the game. Of course, what really lost him the game was the chumpblocking of a 3/3 with his other bear in turn four (which would reduce his life from 17 to 14 if unblocked).

Not indicating that you are a beginner of any sort, I recognize the erronous too-much-land assumption in your defense of Silence over land in your deck. The error is of course less glaring than in my example here, but it is surely there since you run 23 lands in a deck with Emeria, Iona, Felidar Sovereign, Baneslayer Angel, Martial Coup and Gideon Jura. Another error is the inclusion of weak cards over land.

The weakest cards in your deck are Silence and Lone Missionary. If you take them out for 3 lands and 4 of something a bit more powerful (for instance Elspeth) your deck will move in the right direction.
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm stating to agree with the extra land. Alot of games are/won lost trying to topdeck land.

-3 Silence, +2 Plains, +1 Elspeth, for now.


If I cut Lone Missionary, Survival Cache can become pretty bad. And if you cut LM, you need to fill the spots. For starters, more Wraths. Maybe Linvalla or more Elspeth.


Quote:
Also, I've been thinking about Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Another Elspeth may be miles better than Linvala. Especially in terms of top-deck value. But just for kicks... Linvala shuts down:


Mana-ish Abilities: Nobel Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Eldrazi Spawn, Knight of the Reliquary
Pinger/Removal Abilities: Master of the Wild Hunt, Siege-Gang Commander, Cunning Sparkmage, Qasali Pridemage, Vampire Hexmage
Pump Abilities: Putrid Leech, Lavaclaw Reaches, Thornling

Random: Stoneforge Mystic, Dauntless Escort, Ant Queen, Level Up, Card Draw/Looters


Overall, Linvala might be worth it main deck or side as a 2-of. and a 3/4 flier is not too shabby. Especially with Emeria late game. If I did decide to main deck her, I'd run something like this (untested):
Quote:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Emeria, the Sky Ruin
21 [ZEN] Plains (Cool

// Creatures
4 [M10] Baneslayer Angel
4 [ALA] Knight of the White Orchid
4 [ROE] Wall of Omens
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [ROE] Linvala, Keeper of Silence

// Spells
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [ROE] Survival Cache
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [ROE] Gideon Jura
2 [CFX] Martial Coup
3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [WWK] Kor Firewalker
SB: 3 [ZEN] Devout Lightcaster
SB: 2 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
SB: 1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
SB: 3 [ROE] Lone Missionary
SB: 2 [CFX] Wall of Reverence
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