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Fairness & Sportyness


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All three are wrong. A and B as i am a judge, and C because judges must be impartial - it's one of the most significant elements of being a judge. I've been on this league a long time, and a judge showing favoritism is not something i have seen.

As for your ruling, why did you not appeal? contact an admin? The fact you are saying you did play it before and it was ignored leads me to believe that there's more to the picture.

yesm: as for your rant...did you actually bother reading what was said? Because as far as i can see all you did was read the first post and started bitching. That doesn't achieve ANYTHING.
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yesm



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

weedmonkey, im responding to how worldeater's opponent said that he had "forfieted the leach". he didnt say we should ask a judge what to do, his responce was to demand forfiture of the leach. thats just sleezy and in this online practice version of the game we all love is it really worth it? i just think its pathetic. my question is would he try to pull somthing sleezy like that if he was sitting across a table from worldeater having to look a real person in the face? i guess i just consider it cowardly
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yesm



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i didnt say anything about worldeater not contacting a judge. one judge in this thread already stated what he would rule had he had been contacted . i was litterally just saying that the guy (and people like him) are shit....... i thought that was obvious
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly it is all most impossible for man to be unbiased and ludicrous to claim so.

Try reading The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould, it charts the history of scientific racism and how scientist used a preconcieved notion of white supperioty, to produce completly false conclusion.

Unconciously or sometimes conciously mainpulating data to try and portarit the white males as superior from cranilogy to the bell curve. Many Great scientist Broca etc fell prey to the conclusion, which is more an indication of the time than anything else as Gould is clear to point out. But it really does portray how difficult it is to be unbiased even as a man of science.
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FrostFire



Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, first off. MTG is Definately not a sport. It is competition however.

I hate this situation. Being an athlete from the time I could walk, I grew up with integrity. This was not a judges fault or breaking of the rules or whatever. This was simply a lack of integrity. I have found that many mtg players lack this virtue. And I have grown accustomed to it. All you can do is play carefulyl when competing in tournaments.

Now anyone, judge and non judge alike who says a player who cascaded into leech, then proceeded to set the leech apart from other pile of cards. Was not intending on playing the leech....is an absolute retard.
I don't care if its your first day playing magic ever. If i say "hey you can play this card for free" you do it.

After the rant last week about judges being corrupt and haulting a certain team from being in top spot....Just goes to show people will do anything when money is involved(even if its 60 bucks!) Personally I am grateful to all judges for providing a free service.

I have learned from playing against integrity-less people to always...always go to judges. And it has made em a better player for it. I understand the game more clearly and thus make less actual mistakes. So if you learned anything, its always go tojudges...like akel told you.

And Trotsky is right, we are naturally racist and biased.
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the real bottom line with these issues is not the intent, not the lack of integrety, and not the stated action, but the actual action.

the truth is, you cascaded into putrid leech, and then you put all cascaded cards onto the bottom of the library, including the leech.

like it or not, that means that you declined to play the putrid leech, and let the rest of the trigger resolve, thereby advancing the game state past a point where you'd be able to play the leech. since the game state cannot be reversed if it was a legal action... there we go.

it's just like summoning/slaughter pacts. if you don't untap, pay the cost, THEN draw, you lose.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually agree with the ruling being correct.

However a few things, Judges can not play games IRL there is a reason for this, its fairly obvious the judges become friends working together and it creates problems when providing rulings with objectivity.

Conciously or unconciously you are going to favour a friend over someone you do not know. Can you fault the people who are doing this subconciously No.

Back when I played ml i was friends with a good few judges and have used that to my favour for me in the past to get rulings. It goes on.

However I fell foul of a particular corrupt judge, first he gave me a gameloss for an offense i knew was a warning because i've been given a warning for similar things before. I offered a comprimise which would have given my opponent an advantage which judges use to encourage you to do. It was not taken, staright gameloss Judge ruling for another Judge.

Then he insulted me in the forums, going on about how much cleverer everything he says sound than what i said. Sadly for him he did not look so clever when a week later I got 2nd in a trial with my version of the deck we were arguing about. He tried to coverup what an idiot he'd just made himself look by having the trial never shown on the front page.

Then Later on in a masters I was playing another of his friends also a judge, who was trying to cheat me in everyway possible in a game winner is lock for top8. Then he called me into judges4you to get a ruling acusing me of cheating ironically. I argue back presenting the case, I was not cheating at all it was my opponent who was trying to cheat me. They then threaten me with this that and the other because of accusing a judge of cheating. To which i replied I want a ruling from a J2. They replied with glee, there are no J2s around at which point i knew i had to accept the ruling and get out of there before he gave me another gameloss and get on with game 3.

Which I won made top 8. Opponet tried to cheat me again, he dropped heartbeat, not waiting or asking for any response, from me quickly as possible plonking black myojin on the table. I of course wanted to respond to heartbeat by tapping certain lands with spliced psychic puppetry, which he knew and was why he did it so fast not giving me a chance to respond. Knowing that if i went to judges again I would get a gameloss. However I has hisokas defiance so it did not matter, aptly named card untapped and a combination of embers and ires ended it.
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ trotsky1

those are the kinds of things you send complaints about...
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was years ago, in the end I just got modo and stopped playing ml, judge in question is not even around anymore I do not think.

I gave up on a battle, it became more and more apperent i could not win, does not mean I can not still be around to haunt them though.

The trouble with the competative end of magic-league is there are alot of people who will do anything to win.

Now im a competative guy and the more and more I was around these people and saw the things they were doing to win the more these methods became acceptable to me.

The area of decpetion has always been a grey area in card games due to it inpart being an inegral part of the game, sadly this does attract a certain type of person (cheats). The more people see them winning the more they are likley to copy there behaviour.

Back when i played apprentice was the main means of play and this has an untraceable cheat program. So cheats dominated the top of the league which is where I wanted to be.

Back before I knew this, I looked up to alot of these people but the more I played the more I came to realise these people were nothing to aspire to they were just cheats and I came to loathe them, for fooling me and ruining the league.

Yet the truth be told when I left (ml) there was little difference between me them, I rules lawyered, I stalled, I always waited until after a game had started to report wrong sec code. I would not cross the line to actually using backwash though i considered it many times, or cheating in a manner such as drawing extra cards and so on when i should not have but the grey area had become very unclear to me.

Thats why I do not play magic-league anymore, I found myself turning into the very person I loathed with such passion. I have seen it happen to countless other people as well, I could'nt compete and maintain my integral values, some can but alot can not.
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However a few things, Judges can not play games IRL there is a reason for this, its fairly obvious the judges become friends working together and it creates problems when providing rulings with objectivity.


Considering that you can:

1. Appeal
2. Approach the judge director
3. Approach another admin

I fail to see any problem with objectivity. There are sufficient checks and balances to ensure that judges are not unreasonably ruling in favor of a player.

Quote:
Back when I played ml i was friends with a good few judges and have used that to my favour for me in the past to get rulings. It goes on


So because you've done it in the past, and have since stopped playing in the league you can definitively state that it still goes on? Hypocritical at best.

Quote:
Honestly it is all most impossible for man to be unbiased and ludicrous to claim so


Impartial is not unbiased. While it is indeed impossible for a man to be completely unbiased, it is completely possible for a man to be impartial - rule without showing undue bias towards a player.

Quote:
I gave up on a battle, it became more and more apperent i could not win, does not mean I can not still be around to haunt them though.


So your only reason to stick around here is to whine whenever a player states a gripe on the forums? Even though that your situation was years ago and there are only a handful of the judges back then still judging today?

The bottom line is this - if a player has a gripe to make, they should contact an admin. If players feel they have been unjustly treated, they should contact the Judge Director (judgedirector@magic-league.com). If they feel that another admin would be more comfortable for them, they should contact that admin. For all the claims that admins hear, there are very, VERY few that are substantiated and thus we act on. The vast majority of the time, it's players who cannot control their temper when they do the wrong thing who have a rant, and then trolls and the like pile on saying "OH LOOK I'VE HAD A GREAT INJUSTICE DONE TO ME TOO".

This achieves nothing. For the few threads that are justified, it's a lack of clear communication from both parties. Everyone needs to show some understanding from where other people come from. The only way this community is going to grow is if the community as a whole wants it to - and there are people in this league that are willing to make it happen.
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize that I should have asked at least, however to be honest I also remember the earlier days about 9-12 years ago (apprentice, e-league, and others and what they were called) and so on,and what Trostky is talking about I remember it well,still having the "community" in mind where there could not be any judge found who would have deserved this title.

(Probably thats why I didnt even bother writing an admin, or even joining judge channel on my own)
So, apologies from my side in this matter.
I guess I will be still around here for deck testing etc. and next time ill see what happens when I actually goto judge Wink

Trostky: true words what you saying about the nature of card games. Hadnt viewed it in that way. However, while I have got used to competitive norms of play, I just try to behave the way I expect others to behave in the same situation. To be honest, if i was about to Top8 at a pro tour and the cash near, maybe these virtues were all passee. But I dont understand how someone can be that bitchy in an online tourney or even minis.

Alphakiller: Now again about the Putrid Leech thing as I said: I totally understand that the ruling has to be made like it is, in general, and that is not my point.
However two interpretations are possible, when you seperate the card in question from the rest of the pile, and put it beside your other creatures on the battleield. the means you play it. So this is the legal game state ("played") which would have been illegally changed by accidental sliding to the bottom of the library.
Both interpretations are possible. (Regardless of common sense)

By the way it would be an amazing idea when people would switch to GCCG, so all the disconnects and problems would be passe. (there is also for an example built-in serversided logging of game. And can be resumed at any time)

@Frost: Good point by the way. I coldnt have said it better (my english sucks incredibly thats why -.-). And thisi s the reason I had called the thread title like this. But it is a general issue/phenomenon with parts of the MtGplayers/Magic-Community. I think it has to do whether or not you do actual sports (on a competitive level). It somehow influence ones mind to be athlete.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When testing a deck, I laugh at ruleslawyering. Playtesting is about finding out what works and does not work with a deck, and learning to play that deck.

I often give people the opportunity to draw up to 6 if they mull 2-3 times because otherwise the game would be worthless for test purposes. Even misplays that doesn't retrack too much is okay to undo with me. There are limits though - if the misplay is directly game-deciding I may object.

Tournament play is entirely different. Here "ruleslawyering" is a part of the game. If you do a mistake that lets the opponent ruleslawyer you, that's too bad for you. Deal with it or stop playing competitive magic.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weedmonkey wrote:
Quote:
However a few things, Judges can not play games IRL there is a reason for this, its fairly obvious the judges become friends working together and it creates problems when providing rulings with objectivity.


Considering that you can:

1. Appeal
2. Approach the judge director
3. Approach another admin

I fail to see any problem with objectivity. There are sufficient checks and balances to ensure that judges are not unreasonably ruling in favor of a player.

Quote:
Back when I played ml i was friends with a good few judges and have used that to my favour for me in the past to get rulings. It goes on


So because you've done it in the past, and have since stopped playing in the league you can definitively state that it still goes on? Hypocritical at best.

Quote:
Honestly it is all most impossible for man to be unbiased and ludicrous to claim so


Impartial is not unbiased. While it is indeed impossible for a man to be completely unbiased, it is completely possible for a man to be impartial - rule without showing undue bias towards a player.

Quote:
I gave up on a battle, it became more and more apperent i could not win, does not mean I can not still be around to haunt them though.


So your only reason to stick around here is to whine whenever a player states a gripe on the forums? Even though that your situation was years ago and there are only a handful of the judges back then still judging today?

The bottom line is this - if a player has a gripe to make, they should contact an admin. If players feel they have been unjustly treated, they should contact the Judge Director (judgedirector@magic-league.com). If they feel that another admin would be more comfortable for them, they should contact that admin. For all the claims that admins hear, there are very, VERY few that are substantiated and thus we act on. The vast majority of the time, it's players who cannot control their temper when they do the wrong thing who have a rant, and then trolls and the like pile on saying "OH LOOK I'VE HAD A GREAT INJUSTICE DONE TO ME TOO".

This achieves nothing. For the few threads that are justified, it's a lack of clear communication from both parties. Everyone needs to show some understanding from where other people come from. The only way this community is going to grow is if the community as a whole wants it to - and there are people in this league that are willing to make it happen.



First off the white house has been corrupt, the house of commons has been corrupt, corruption is a reality. I was trying to paint a fair picture but I still have my biases and have no problem acknowleding them.

Your system is not perfect stop pretending like it is.

I appreciate what your trying to do for the league.

However did you ever think the reason that so few complaints are substaninted are your biases, is that not all so an explanation.

Cranilogy for example multiple excellent scientist did studies they thought proved white superior intellect to all other races. They took 16 white male skulls and 16 black mixed gender skulls and measured them. See the problem? Men are bigger women there was no real difference in skull size, the difference was created by a gender inbalance in the sample.

They already had a belief and they went about proving it to themselves ignoring all evidence to the contrary this is what people do. They were not doing it on purpose a great deal of them as they left perfectly replicable ways of repeating the studies Mismeasures in all.

Or the age old argument of biological determism the reason why white man is on top, because he is smarter he was born to rule, his conquests prove this. Sure the romans, the greeks the british empire yes they conquered a great deal of the world.

But are you not overlooking someone who infact conquered more of the world than any of those civilations, Temujin? No? Ghengis Khan? Funny how history was so quick to portray him as a savage. A savage that conquered half the world more than any other man. What about this does not fit?

Why because if they could not write him off as this then the argument of biological deternism was undermined it would not do to have a Mongolian, Greater than Cesar, Alexander, Richard. So much for the whiteman is on top because he is superior. People geniunely did not see this despite the fact it was staring them in the eyes. They already believed it as truth and went about proving a conclusion to themselves, rather than doing research to reach a conclusion.

These were some of the greatest scientist of all time, I mean Broca has an actual area of the brain named after him, if they were prey to it so are you.

Oh and I largely stay here to post limited drafts and to help with deck building.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a thread about general magic douchebaggery, you say? sounds fun.
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I believe to be a problem in competitive magic is that many people play there, who aren't familiar with sports at all. When growing up with sports you learn the very concept of fair competition.
It is funny those are the one's who are quick with phrases like "if you dont like it, dont play competitively"

In real-life tournament, these are the people who e.g. hide their nonbasic lands under basiclands or other cards when they see a Wasteland coming.
In general this means actively or passively (ab)using advantage that hails from outside the game itself.

"Ruleslawyering" indeed is part of the game, but it doesn't mean to exploit holes in there that are sometimes found in floor rules or penalty guidelines just to gain advantage, e.g. hiding basics like said above, or forcing a physically impaired opponent to bow over the whole table by only putting cards near the own edge of the table, or using only chinese versions of less known cards in T1/1.5 while not cooperating or even intentionally (more or less subtleley) mis-translating them - all things I have already observed on larger tournaments
(Now I think the DCI-rules are pretty straight, but these were in times around 96/97).
These are now cases of more of less active douchbaggery, but there are several shades of grey here.

While it is true, that your opponent may not have the "best intends" - this is why judges exist - a true sportsman would not even remotely consider doing the above mentioned things.

PS: Dont get me wrong. It is neither so that I want to say that only magic players are shitheads, nor is it that people in "other sports" are none. Both exist there somewhere in equal parts.
E.g. in soccer you could help a player from the opposing team up when he falls and no one else is near, but you are not obliged to do so. It would cost him more energy to stand up on his own. And thus, tehre are people who would help him up, and people who wouldn't.
The same happens in magic, in many faccets and shades of grey of course.

Long posting again, the conclusion is once more the good old: "Always behave in a way so that, if everyone behaved like this, an enjoyable tournament can be played."
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