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Fairness & Sportyness


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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Fairness & Sportyness Reply with quote

Hello

I often read (starting) messages in MWS like "good luck, and fair play" and several other.

Now, let me first shortly sketch what I believe to be the spirit of those high phrases ("fairness" "sportsmanship conduct" etc.)

I am a friend of many sports, both actively and passively: Soccer, Athletics, Basketball, Boxing, Chess and...yes Magic. At least I consider this to be a sport.
And when playing on tournaments in real-life, I clearly enjoy this as a sport.
However, not so online. At least not on MWS (I don't know MTG:O to be honest)

In real-life it is easy to distinguish between what is a misplay and whats not. When someone accidently drops his his hand, because he wanted to get his pen to adjust LP-Totals, then no opponent/judge in the world would insist that the cards that may have become apparent by flipping over in this way are "to be played", not even when they would be a legal play.

Or, to compare this with what just happened to me on MWS, when I Bloodbraid Elf into a Putrid Leech in fact, opponent at 2 HP after attack from bloodbraid, and only a Wall of Denial on his hand seperates me from the victory next turn.
Now, it is absolutely damn apparent that I will play the Putrid Leech, thus I already seperate it from the rest of the cascade pile on the virtual table.
But then something happens that I didnt expect: Somehow I had drawn a frame across all of the cascaded cards and the Leech went back to the bottom of my library.
"oops"
Lets compare this to a IRL situation.
You clearly intend to play the Leech, put it down there - seperated from the rest of the pile - and then accidentally snatch it with your elbow near the bottom of your library.
also "oops".
But who in such a (real-life) situation, who in hell would have even wasted his time, calling a judge, insisting on "you forfeited playing the Leech".

On the one hand, there are clear rulings (leaving hand on card when tapping etc.) in real-life, these are basics that are important. But every fair player will quickly recognize the difference between misplay or mishap (misclick) - and react appropriately.

So - exactly this happened to me on MWS. And it's now the fourth or fifth time almonst in a damn row, when a clearly won match on my side, turned to be a loss because of either technical (access violation when dragging cards with arrows), or otherwise just plain/physical mishaps.

Now, I could have gone to #judges4you, barking and whining. Maybe they would have even ruled in favor of me. But in these situation, im just tilted.

And, to be honest, when someone doesn't have at least that much of understanding of sportsmanship, I do not even want to play another game with such a person, in a contest of sports - as I do understand Magic.
Magic isn't a game of dexterity after all, thats why Chaos Orb is banned, and thats the point here.

I am absolutely the last person, who wouldn't admit a misplay. Hell, even when something in favor of me happens, I always say "wait a moment". But something like this is just plain bullshit. No one would even remotely consider insisting on such a thing in real life.

Now, you will laugh at me probably (another thing you would never ever dare to do in real-life), call me naive and dumb. But im done with online gaming, since it has nothing to do with sportsmanship. And no, its not the fact thats its online, its the fact that people behave like they never would dare to on real-life.
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you didnt get the point.

AFTER stating, that you wish to play the card, you snatch it by accident back. I doubt any judge in the world would rule in favor of the querulant wanker in this case.

And although I didn't have such a situation at all in real-life, i'd actually doubt that the vast majority of players would consider a physical mishap like that to be the reason to even call a judge.

It doesn't translate 1-1 well to MWS/online, so consider the example I gave above, with the pen. (which actually happened live in front of cam at some pro tour a few years ago. must be still on youtube)
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The big flaw in your rant (and subsequently your way of thinking) worldeater is your lack of empathy in this situation. Different players get different things out of participating in this league. Some people wish to further their judge skills. Some wish to test new decks. Some wish to test their decks in as close to a live tournament environment that they can. What you get out of playing in this league isn't necessarily the same for your opponent. There are two players required to play, not one.

As for ranting on here...what is the point? There are reasons Magic-League has rules in place, and judges are more than happy to discuss the philosophies of these if you asked instead of going on a whine in a thread.
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what is this philosophy ? To punish physical misclicking while ignoring one's obvious intent ? I am absolutely not talking about cases where things are less clear than those, or where there is some incertainity remaining, or where something can not be tracked back. But there are situations where it is just obvious, and where it has nothing to do with misplay, or mere silliness (like missed trigger etc.) but with mere physical mishap or technical issue, thus absolutely nothing which will ever matter on a real tournament at all.

The empathy you are talking about is missing in those players, who want to ensure their own victory above everything. When victory is that important, one will also cheat of course, when opportunity arises to do so without any risk of being caught.

btw: when I am playing on this league against someone with "+" or another "pet", I wont waste time going to #judges4you, as it is evident that the rules are bent towards the guy with the better reputation, at least in these cases.

btw2: Furthermore I want to state, that when it is that evident that someone is going to win and I am going to lose, and then its access violation because he draws something im about to mark, and then this which would grant me match win, I have more than once given the win to the rightful owner, when there was no chance for me to turn the match still around. Maybe this thinking isnt appropriate for online league play, but its my understanding of fairness not to exploit disadvantages that arise from outside the game and are totally unconnected to
a.) player skill
b.) game mechanic


Last edited by worldeater on Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:52 pm; edited 5 times in total
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you should be punished for misclicks, thats the way computer games work
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks god that im not that virtualized, that I would consider magic a computer game.
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

worldeater wrote:
Thanks god that im not that virtualized, that I would consider magic a computer game.


Well, I think it's both, honestly. I much prefer real life Magic, but it's only fair to expect other people to think of digital Magic as a computer game, considering it's a game, and on the computer. It's just the way it goes. In digital form it is a computer game, in real life it's obviously not.

I actually agree with many of your points, but I think one of the key issues is that there is a difference between Magic and MWS/MTGO. For all you know, your opponent only plays digitally, and thus doesn't get the distinction between physical and digital errors.

So, in the digital realm, it's perfectly fair to be punished for digital mistakes. I agree it's kind of lame, but, again, that's just how it goes, and it's out of your control. So instead of complaining, learn from it, and try not to make such mistakes in the future. It's what I do, in real life or online. Fact is, you messed up, even though it obviously wouldn't translate to real life, you messed up in the digital game you were playing at the time. Two different mediums, differences and inconsistency are bound to exist. So, accept that a mistake was made, and decide on your own the best way to deal with that.

In conclusion: Yes, that sucks, and some people would give you it back (I probably would, as I'm a strong proponent of the 'intent' way of determining strictness when it comes to slight misplays), but the fact is no one has to give you the replay, and your opponent's call was fine as well, so try and avoid doing such things in the future.
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Sandro



Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He doesn't mean its a computer game(World of Warcraft/Diablo 2) so much as he means a game you play on the computer(Poker/Magic)... which it is.

Now, I'm with you on most of what you are saying, and it sucks, but there's not much you can do about it. And there have to be such rules in place to keep people from cheating. And if you have the said rules in place you must enforce them or it leaves room for corruption. So basically, it sucks. Get over it. Play some more or don't. Its up to you. Smile
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cmc
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy solution: stop misclicking
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Kienan



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also worth noting that, while the original scenario would never happen in real life, something very, very similar would. Some people want to win above all else, and any excuse you give them will be exploited, despite your obvious intent. So, no, this has nothing to do with it being online. Fact is, this happens online and off, whether or not you agree with it. Truth is, rules trump intent and, while it would often be sporting to allow a redo when the intent is obvious, it's not required, so you should try and minimize play errors.

I agree, it would be nice if intent won out over rules in the cases where intent is obvious, but this isn't the case. And not everyone shares the same mindset about it being a sporting event so, although I agree with you, I also claim that it's not fair to expect everyone else to and, considering the rules back them up, this argument doesn't hold up. I hear your frustration, and I sympathize, but your opponent was completely within his rights and, depending on his mindset, from his perspective it was probably completely just.

It's a competitive game, and someone has to lose. Depending on the play style of each player, different things are considered "sporting." If you just go by the rules, and that it's a game that you can win, then catching people for play errors becomes part of the game and, since it's part of the game, it feels completely honorable. Again, since the rules themselves support this, you need to minimize errors, so this isn't an issue. Then you can play a game that is honorable to both perspectives, and everyone is happy.
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, what is this philosophy ? To punish physical misclicking while ignoring one's obvious intent ? I am absolutely not talking about cases where things are less clear than those, or where there is some incertainity remaining, or where something can not be tracked back. But there are situations where it is just obvious, and where it has nothing to do with misplay, or mere silliness (like missed trigger etc.) but with mere physical mishap or technical issue, thus absolutely nothing which will ever matter on a real tournament at all.


The fact is that it isn't clear. Judges are not psychic - we cannot determine what a player's true intent was. Players misplay. They also miss information that they can apply later to their advantage. As far as we are concerned, we do not allow players to reverse legal actions unless their opponent agrees to it.

As for saying it would never matter at a real tournament...if you put Putrid Leech on the bottom of your library 'accidentally', no judge worth their salt would allow you to put the Leech back.

Quote:
The empathy you are talking about is missing in those players, who want to ensure their own victory above everything. When victory is that important, one will also cheat of course, when opportunity arises to do so without any risk of being caught.


Thanks for proving my point here.

Quote:
btw: when I am playing on this league against someone with "+" or another "pet", I wont waste time going to #judges4you, as it is evident that the rules are bent towards the guy with the better reputation, at least in these cases.


This is completely childish. Attacking the integrity of judges without definitive evidence is...unbelievable. Judges are not corrupt, nor do they favor each other.

Quote:
btw2: Furthermore I want to state, that when it is that evident that someone is going to win and I am going to lose, and then its access violation because he draws something im about to mark, and then this which would grant me match win, I have more than once given the win to the rightful owner, when there was no chance for me to turn the match still around. Maybe this thinking isnt appropriate for online league play, but its my understanding of fairness not to exploit disadvantages that arise from outside the game and are totally unconnected to
a.) player skill
b.) game mechanic


From my understanding of how things work on this league, if an error occurs that doesn't allow players to continue their match, we grant players a match win if they can prove without any doubts that they are in a position to win the game during that turn.
[/quote]
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is completely childish. Attacking the integrity of judges without definitive evidence is...unbelievable. Judges are not corrupt, nor do they favor each other.


This is how I feel when reflecting the rulings made over the few games I had here, in depenance whether playing "someone" or a +
And that is the reason why I do not even waste time anymore going to #judges4you when I play someone with "+".
Again, it is just a personal feeling, no definitive accusation. I have no prove, but if you like, I'd like to listen to what you have to say about a certain situation (read below)



Quote:
From my understanding of how things work on this league, if an error occurs that doesn't allow players to continue their match, we grant players a match win if they can prove without any doubts that they are in a position to win the game during that turn.


Then either
a.) you understanding is wrong
b.) it is correct, but wasn't so a while ago (the ruling mentioned above)
c.) judges are not impartial

I remember it very well (because this was the reason why I had paused to play here, a very similiar situation) not long ago on RFT tourney when I played daedal, it was a clear win for me, I had Nicol Bolas out and Dreamhall combo going, he tapped out etc, clear victory. Then access violation hit, joined judge channel and the ruling was made really quick (i doubt the judge has even checked the screenshot)...
Hell I still have the screenshot.
So if you wish I send it to you, and you tell me honestely if this ruling would have been in accord to what
Quote:
From my understanding of how things work on this league,


Quote:
As for saying it would never matter at a real tournament...if you put Putrid Leech on the bottom of your library 'accidentally', no judge worth their salt would allow you to put the Leech back.


Actually you had put it beside your other creatures on the battlefield, stating you play it, before you accidentaly stuck it back or slid back or whatnot...
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yesm



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

worldeater, u have brought up the thing about mtg that i have come to hate. i have played magic since i was about 10 and im 25 now and one thing that i noticed since i started playing this game was that there always seemed to be at least one guy at every tournament trying to get free wins off of an opponents slip of hand (like accidentally flipping a card off of the library). i understand calling a judge in a major tournament but in a small tourney with little to no prizes on the line common. kids are seeing this sportsmanship. the kids that are the future of this game not to mention kids that are learning life lessons as they see this. learning to get their asses kicked in highschool as far as im concerned. now when u see that kind of bullshit being applied to an online magic league i just think its pathetic. one observation ive made that seems to b a common trait of the people that pull that shit is they never seem to have well rounded lives. magic for some reason seems to b the end all b all of their existence and they will do anything for a win. i recently had a frustrating experience at a new card shop that i started playing at. i was in a fnm draft and i was playing against a local. he assumed because he had never seen me at the shop that i was new to the game and a scrub. after i beat him he proceeded to b a complete jerk about the loss. disrespectful to myself and the shop owner whos living depends on people coming to his shop and enjoying themselves. im in us navy special ops and probably had 60 pounds on the guy but what would b even more sad would b geting in a fight over a game of cards (even if it is the best card game ever made hands down). end rant.......
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worldeater



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Think about it this way; in real life Magic, you forget to draw an extra card off of a Howling Mine, and nobody realizes it until a turn later.


Now this is exactly what im talking about.

In such a case a lack of experience or decktesting makes someone forget a trigger and so on.

Its perfectly okay when a judge is called there. It is an essential mechanic of the game, and should work well on tournament level.

I am already not new on tournaments and I know how it goes, and I have mastered the basics to a certain extend. Id be the last to jerk when I have made a mistake, or misplay, that has something to do with the game.

But software errors or stupid clicks are definately nothing in that direction. And I refuse to accept stupid clicks as "misplays".
This is frustrating because you can't do much, or even nothing at all (when it comes to disconnects, which also lost me a bunch of games because reconnect impossible)

Oh and btw. no judge was involved in the situation. I was just tilted by my opponents behaviour to insist "that you forfeited to play", and thus quit.
While it is probably okay and within his rights, I wouldn't ever behave like that on a non-competitive level, and even on a competitive level probably not. I'd feel like a douche-bag if I did. And again, im not talking about misplays here.

I apologize for the statement about the judges.
It was just a single case, where this happened actually, and maybe we can get to clear it.
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