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Ethersworn Canonist



 
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Ethersworn Canonist Reply with quote

DarkJEDI plays Captured Sunlight from Hand
DarkJEDI's life total is now 20 (+4)
DarkJEDI's life total is now 16 (-4)
DarkJEDI puts Captured Sunlight to Graveyard from Play
DarkJEDI puts Khalni Garden into play from Library
DarkJEDI puts Island into play from Library
DarkJEDI puts Trace of Abundance into play from Library
Trace of Abundance is enchanting Stirring Wildwood now
<insom> cant cast 2 spells
<DarkJEDI> its cascade i can decide which i use
<insom> cascade casts spells
<insom> canonist says you cant cast a second
<DarkJEDI> and its on STACK so i can decide
<insom> you have to cast the first one to trigger cascade
<DarkJEDI> learn the cards... goodbye

Is there any truth to this at all?
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, cannonist pretty much shuts off cascade spells
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Oop



Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bad people are bad, and they tend to never want to learn on MWS... why I hate it so much lol
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've had an almost exact situation where I had a master transmuter in play, and in response to the cascade ability being put onto the stack, I transmute my canonist into play. he tries to lightning bolt my transmuter with a cascaded bolt, and then quits when I try to explain to him why not.
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LordLink



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly it serves you right for playing on MWSplay. Every game should always be under league judge supervision.

On MWSplay you just have to accept that like %40 of your games are non-events and move on.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alphakiller wrote:
i've had an almost exact situation where I had a master transmuter in play, and in response to the cascade ability being put onto the stack, I transmute my canonist into play. he tries to lightning bolt my transmuter with a cascaded bolt, and then quits when I try to explain to him why not.


Um, maybe I have misunderstood something now, but that Lightning Bolt would be the first spell cast while Canonist is in play, so I think you were wrong.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well there would be another spell cast considering theres a cascade ability put on the stack
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asamodious



Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Vedr Youre mistaken. Like Gypsy said. When he played the spell that cascaded into the bolt, that was his one spell for the turn.
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vedrfolner wrote:
Alphakiller wrote:
i've had an almost exact situation where I had a master transmuter in play, and in response to the cascade ability being put onto the stack, I transmute my canonist into play. he tries to lightning bolt my transmuter with a cascaded bolt, and then quits when I try to explain to him why not.


Um, maybe I have misunderstood something now, but that Lightning Bolt would be the first spell cast while Canonist is in play, so I think you were wrong.


From Gatherer:

"This effect takes into account spells that were cast earlier in the turn that Ethersworn Canonist entered the battlefield, including any spells still on the stack. However, any spells on the stack as Ethersworn Canonist enters the battlefield have already been "cast" by that point, so they're not affected by it."

So here's what happens. BBE and Cascade are on the stack. Transmuter is activated, and Canonist is placed on the field. The ability is now active. Cascade now resolves, and a Lightning Bolt is flipped over. However, it can't be cast because BBE was already cast earlier in the turn, before the Bolt.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bantos86 wrote:
Vedrfolner wrote:
Alphakiller wrote:
i've had an almost exact situation where I had a master transmuter in play, and in response to the cascade ability being put onto the stack, I transmute my canonist into play. he tries to lightning bolt my transmuter with a cascaded bolt, and then quits when I try to explain to him why not.


Um, maybe I have misunderstood something now, but that Lightning Bolt would be the first spell cast while Canonist is in play, so I think you were wrong.


From Gatherer:

"This effect takes into account spells that were cast earlier in the turn that Ethersworn Canonist entered the battlefield, including any spells still on the stack. However, any spells on the stack as Ethersworn Canonist enters the battlefield have already been "cast" by that point, so they're not affected by it."

So here's what happens. BBE and Cascade are on the stack. Transmuter is activated, and Canonist is placed on the field. The ability is now active. Cascade now resolves, and a Lightning Bolt is flipped over. However, it can't be cast because BBE was already cast earlier in the turn, before the Bolt.


I thought that what would happen would be that BBE (which was cast before EC entered the battlefield) is on stack below the cascade trigger. Then on top of that EC resolves. As Gatherer says, any spells on the stack have already been cast and are so not affected by EC. So the first spell that is cast and so affected by EC is the cascaded bolt. The bolt is played, kills EC, and then it is BBE's turn to try to resolve, which it does because at this point EC is no longer in play.

If the cascaded card was a Blightning instead, it would resolve and BBE not, in other words.

But the first sentence in Gatherer says that EC takes into account earlier cast spells, so this is not correct.

I think that the Gatherer entry is confusing, though, because the first and last sentence says two opposing things in my eyes.
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Luckra



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the casting of BBE is counted toward that players first spell but if there had been another spell like a bolt on the stack before canonist came into play then that spell would of resolved. This is assuming putting canonist into play is before cascade resolves if it was transmuted into play before cascade had gone off the lightning bolt could of killed the canonist.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vedrfolner wrote:

I thought that what would happen would be that BBE (which was cast before EC entered the battlefield) is on stack below the cascade trigger. Then on top of that EC resolves. As Gatherer says, any spells on the stack have already been cast and are so not affected by EC. So the first spell that is cast and so affected by EC is the cascaded bolt. The bolt is played, kills EC, and then it is BBE's turn to try to resolve, which it does because at this point EC is no longer in play.

If the cascaded card was a Blightning instead, it would resolve and BBE not, in other words.

But the first sentence in Gatherer says that EC takes into account earlier cast spells, so this is not correct.

I think that the Gatherer entry is confusing, though, because the first and last sentence says two opposing things in my eyes.


You're confusing the difference between casting a spell and a spell resolving. Ethersworn Canonist doesn't prevent spells from resolving, it prevents spells from being cast. In the example given, the BBE has already been cast, so can't be affected by Canonist's ability. The Lightning Bolt, however, has not yet been cast, and cannot be cast, because the player has already cast at least one nonartifact spell (perhaps more) that turn. That the Canonist was not in play when that spell was cast is irrelevant. It isn't the Canonist counting spells played, it's the game. The game knows that Bloodbraid Elf was already cast that turn, so Lightning Bolt would not be the first nonartifact spell cast, and therefore cannot be cast at all.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't ever confusing casting and resolving, but rather felt that the Gatherer entry didn't explain as clearly as you did that it is the game counting spells cast and not the canonist.

"the BBE has already been cast, so can't be affected by Canonist's ability. The Lightning Bolt, however, has not yet been cast, and cannot be cast, because the player has already cast at least one nonartifact spell"

The "can't be affected by Canonist's ability" is what is confusing here. I wouldn't say that at all, not that way. It is basically the same as saying that BBE as a cast spell is not counted towards Canonist's ability, and thus the Lightning Bolt is the first spell cast that turn. That is what it looks like Gatherer is saying. They should be clearer. For example by stating the difference between casting and resolving in the rules text.

Edit: in other words the Gatherer text "This effect takes into account spells that were cast earlier in the turn that Ethersworn Canonist entered the battlefield, including any spells still on the stack. However, any spells on the stack as Ethersworn Canonist enters the battlefield have already been "cast" by that point, so they're not affected by it." should end with ", so they are not affected by it since Ethersworn Canonist does not prevent spells from resolving." .. or something along those lines.
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