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B/R Ad Nauseam


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks
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Alphakiller



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

goblin bushwhacker: 2 mana to cast with kicker.

death's shadow: 1 mana each.

this leaves room for another 3 1-mana creatures, in the very likely event that you hit a mana during your, take note, END OF TURN Ad nauseam that you played during your opponent's turn.

i'd say a turn six suprise kill is pretty good. and that's also why you build a transformative sideboard to keep your opponent guessing.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry wasn't aware that Ad Nauseam was an instant.

That nullifies the 9 mana comment of course...
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am playing a burn shell I think I want hell's thunder as a finisher over ad nauseum almost every time. If you want to start adding spot removal and discard so that you can damage yourself and still actually see turn 6 along with combo pieces like death's shadow and bushwhacker you lose out on the power of your red cards. I think people are just telling you that being able to pull off a turn 6 combo once in ten games isn't worth that loss. I haven't tried it but I am guessing that most of the time you actually do pull off the combo you are playing control and could have just killed them turns before by playing 7 bolts or 1 manabarbs.
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Kami5909



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is that it's pretty freaking hard to deal with 2 bushwhacked death's shadows on turn 6, harder than it would be to deal with, say, 2 ball lightning, plus you fill your hand with lots of burn spells and sign in blood to finish your opponent.
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Kami5909



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Insom wrote:
If I am playing a burn shell I think I want hell's thunder as a finisher over ad nauseum almost every time. If you want to start adding spot removal and discard so that you can damage yourself and still actually see turn 6 along with combo pieces like death's shadow and bushwhacker you lose out on the power of your red cards. I think people are just telling you that being able to pull off a turn 6 combo once in ten games isn't worth that loss. I haven't tried it but I am guessing that most of the time you actually do pull off the combo you are playing control and could have just killed them turns before by playing 7 bolts or 1 manabarbs.

Read the article or play the deck, this is completely 100% wrong.
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are playing 2 ball lightning on turn 6 you are doing something wrong. I have read the article and have extensive experience playing a decent version of this deck (one loaded with fast, consistent damage instead of unplayable combo pieces).
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spudfuss



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first it is hilarious how ppl post decks right off MTG.com and think that we dont read them
second its hilarious how ppl trash decks before they even know how the deck works

I tested the deck its not bad not great, it can be very fast leading off with goblin guide and hellspark is always good.
I beat jund all lands by doing just that, but ive only tested like 4 games with this deck, the combo is kinda nice as your running out of steam but i was able to do the combo in some form vs aggro and control.
Vs aggro it is often a race allowing you to cast ad nassum slightly in dangerous territory to find a couple pieces of burn to win the game.
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Kami5909



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Insom wrote:
If you are playing 2 ball lightning on turn 6 you are doing something wrong. I have read the article and have extensive experience playing a decent version of this deck (one loaded with fast, consistent damage instead of unplayable combo pieces).

The point is that you're hitting for 20 damage on turn 6 with nothing on your board on turn 5, as if you have just been holding hellspark elementals and goblin guides in your hand the whole time. Even if they block or survive, the 8/8 Death's Shadows don't go away at end of turn and you have a bunch of spells like bolt, burst and sign to deal whatever damage they didn't die to. It's not the best deck in the world by any means but honestly if you can go from having one card in hand and nothing but 5 land at end of opponent's turn to swinging for lethal on turn 6, your deck is always a force to be reckoned with.

Also maybe it's the deck you were testing with. Could you please post the decklist which is so similar to the one we're talking about?
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the idea is actually quite good, ad nausem is reasonable for drawing some juice in a deck with such a low cc, even with out the combo.

What I would say is I do not think the deck wants 4 death's shadow, its pretty useless before turn 6 after eot adnausem giving you ample oppertunity to dig for it. Its the only card in the deck that is really not good by itself def not a 4 off.

So what I would do is focus less on the combo but keep it in and add more good traditional rdw card, such as plated geopede I mean this deck is playing 5cc spells after all.

I appreciate is lose's the focus of the mono red burn deck its strength and weakness all in one. However the sacrafice adds a new very powerfull element to the deck that certainly warrants exploring. mono red burn stroke combo magic never seizes to surprise.
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kami5909 wrote:
Insom wrote:
If I am playing a burn shell I think I want hell's thunder as a finisher over ad nauseum almost every time. If you want to start adding spot removal and discard so that you can damage yourself and still actually see turn 6 along with combo pieces like death's shadow and bushwhacker you lose out on the power of your red cards. I think people are just telling you that being able to pull off a turn 6 combo once in ten games isn't worth that loss. I haven't tried it but I am guessing that most of the time you actually do pull off the combo you are playing control and could have just killed them turns before by playing 7 bolts or 1 manabarbs.

Read the article or play the deck, this is completely 100% wrong.

Played the deck now. I am not sure what part of this you think is wrong. Giving up consistently fast wins for control and card draw still seems like a bad idea. Playing turn 1 guide and turn 2 hellspark only to let my opponent miss a land drop and still play a turn 5 iona made me die a little inside.
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Kami5909



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Insom wrote:
Kami5909 wrote:
Insom wrote:
If I am playing a burn shell I think I want hell's thunder as a finisher over ad nauseum almost every time. If you want to start adding spot removal and discard so that you can damage yourself and still actually see turn 6 along with combo pieces like death's shadow and bushwhacker you lose out on the power of your red cards. I think people are just telling you that being able to pull off a turn 6 combo once in ten games isn't worth that loss. I haven't tried it but I am guessing that most of the time you actually do pull off the combo you are playing control and could have just killed them turns before by playing 7 bolts or 1 manabarbs.

Read the article or play the deck, this is completely 100% wrong.

Played the deck now. I am not sure what part of this you think is wrong. Giving up consistently fast wins for control and card draw still seems like a bad idea. Playing turn 1 guide and turn 2 hellspark only to let my opponent miss a land drop and still play a turn 5 iona made me die a little inside.

Goblin Guide puts lands into hand, not into play. Unless you're referring to something else in this deck that lets your opponent put a turn 5 Iona down that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe he meant that the deck would be faster and more consistent without the 7 cards (or more?) dedicated to the combo...
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean having to say "End My Turn" with 5 lands in play after playing turn 1 guide and turn 2 hellspark is not something I want to make a habit of. Its not just the combo pieces. At least bushwhacker can do about half the damage that the card it replaces (searing blaze) could on its own. It is the spot removal that can't kill a firewalker and 3cmc cards that only do 3 damage rather than the standard 6 or 8 as well.
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fatherphil



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played this deck last night at fnm, it was horrible. I hated Drawing an ad nasuem. and I hated drawing death shadows. boarded them out always. the deck needs to just be a red black aggro. pretty much a red deck wins that can kill firewalker. the combo is to slow. good idea though but the format really is to fast
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messed around with a standard rdw shell with 4 dragonskull and 2 swamps main and a sb of:
3 manabarbs
4 lavaclaw
3 ad nauseum
4 deathmark
1 burst lightning

It was mildly entertaining.
For those of you playing R/B are you cutting fetches or peaks to make it work? Are you adding lavaclaw or terramorphic?
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