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Grixis vs "Boss" Naya


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JSUOversoul



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:19 pm    Post subject: Grixis vs "Boss" Naya Reply with quote

So I was reading LSV's tournament report over on ChannelFireball.com earlier, and I read where he wanted to play Grixis, but then finally switched to the Naya deck later in the week. He said he lost a lot with the deck, so I wanted to test my version of Grixis against the deck he chose for the PT. I played a 20-game set (10 pre-board, 10 sideboard) with one of the best players at my shop, and my results were 50/50 in both. If I resolved a Cruel Ultimatum, I won. When I lost, either the game didn't make it 7 turns due to sick draws from the Boss deck, or Cruel never showed. Who else has playtested against the new Naya deck, whether it's with Grixis or something else, and what are your results? And if you've tested against Grixis, what are your results?


For reference, here is the Grixis list I played with:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Crumbling Necropolis
3 Island
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Mountain

3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
2 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Treasure Hunt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Negate
3 Earthquake
2 Double Negative
2 Essence Scatter
1 Liliana Vess
1 Banefire

Sideboard:
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Flashfreeze
2 Pithing Needle
2 Swerve
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

(Yeah yeah, I know, 61 cards and Banefire. My meta has quite a lot of control decks right now, and the Banefire has won me several games the last couple weeks. And some people hate her, but Liliana has been awesome, and I wouldn't think of cutting her.)
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Tuffy



Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly Treasure Hunt doesnt seem like it belongs in your build. Jace is the only deck manipulation you have. I would suggest running some number of halimar depths in it. You only run 3 Jace and I think you definately want 4. She digs for land and it bounces a non-active Knight of the reliquerry. I would run turtles as those are really good right now, especially against naya. Persecutor just doesnt do anything for you it seems as well. Its just a big dumb 6/6 that you have to resolve a removal spell on later in the game. Since UW runs more counters and mana disruption I think that you just auto scoop to it as well. Persecutor is dead in the matchup because they can just counterwar you and keep your persecutor out till they win. Persecutor does not belong in Grixis.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with putting the turtle in to make this a better matchup. They can't do anything to it but try and overrun it or get a noble hierarch out, etc.

I haven't tested this matchup, but i've played both decks as much as anyone. I think you would be well served to put Siege-gang into your grixis deck over the persecutor in general, but I think it would be good in this matchup as well.

If liliana has been so good to you...why do you only play 1? Its not Nicol Bolas or anything like that...

Speak of the devil. I would never play grixis without Nicol Bolas. Try it, I dare you.
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Tuffy



Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicol Bolas does not win the game by itself....if you can play it you should have already stabilized. Its a win-moar card. I would rather have a 4th Cruel Ultimatum than a nicol bolas
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuffy wrote:
Nicol Bolas does not win the game by itself....if you can play it you should have already stabilized. Its a win-moar card. I would rather have a 4th Cruel Ultimatum than a nicol bolas


You're going off assumption. Them -> BSA, you Nicol Bolas. That's good. Really good. Game winning good.

You killing lands and planeswalkers is good as well.

Just test it. It's all I'm saying.
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JSUOversoul



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the point of this thread wasn't very clear. I wasn't asking for help with the Grixis list, I was asking who else has played ANY deck in a reasonable number of games against the new Naya deck, and what the results were. Not trying to be rude or anything, but I wasn't looking for "add this" or "you don't need that". My deck's suited for what I play against on a regular basis (they don't have many large tournaments close to me). I wanted to know actual testing results from someone other than myself and my playtest partner. Anyone have any of those?
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Tuffy



Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The UW control deck is about a 60/40 vs Boss Naya g1. You just cant let them resolve Elspeth. They can also win if they get the nut fast start and you have no disruption...but thats why there is a such thing as a mulligan for value.

Vamps have a decent matchup vs it as well
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fatherphil



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I 2-1'd it at fnm with my grixis list.
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Tuffy



Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CONGRATS ON BEATING A DECK AT A FNM!!!! This guy is looking for results analysis from people, not randoms saying ''I BEAT IT WITH RANDOM X DECK AT A FNM.......seriously. You gave no list, you played 1 match. He wants to know if anyone has tested and what the results are.....
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ShoGunZ



Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:48 pm    Post subject: Calcite make it snappy Reply with quote

believe AB is really vulnerable to removal.Play calcite snapper the card is really good againts holding aggro off except flyers which u have spot removal for and pack a beating whenever u play a land and did i mention he laughs at the face of any spot removal????
And against UW control or UWR control if u lay 1 down early game is almost sure u win.
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Tuffy



Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UW has 5 sweepers...turtle doesnt auto win g1
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clayparson



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
UW has 5 sweepers...turtle doesnt auto win g1


Not to mention those angels comin' outta the board
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P_P4E wrote:
Tuffy wrote:
Nicol Bolas does not win the game by itself....if you can play it you should have already stabilized. Its a win-moar card. I would rather have a 4th Cruel Ultimatum than a nicol bolas


You're going off assumption. Them -> BSA, you Nicol Bolas. That's good. Really good. Game winning good.

You killing lands and planeswalkers is good as well.

Just test it. It's all I'm saying.


If you're capable of throwing out a Bolas, then by this point, they should also be capable of throwing out the BSA while having enough mana open for a Negate, possibly even Double Negative/Cancel.

I have tested it in Grixis Control, and I agree with Tuffy. Whenever I did play it, it was either when I had nothing else to play, and it really wasn't affecting the board much (ie, YAY I BLEW UP THEIR TENTH LAND! ONLY NINE MORE TO GO!), or it was a good play, but an Ultimatum would have been better. Only once did I ever get to take a Baneslayer, and they ended up killing it before it dealt any damage to them. I believe there's a card for 4B that kills a creature or land, and the controller discards a card, or something like that. I would have rather had that card than Bolas.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bantos86 wrote:
P_P4E wrote:
Tuffy wrote:
Nicol Bolas does not win the game by itself....if you can play it you should have already stabilized. Its a win-moar card. I would rather have a 4th Cruel Ultimatum than a nicol bolas


You're going off assumption. Them -> BSA, you Nicol Bolas. That's good. Really good. Game winning good.

You killing lands and planeswalkers is good as well.

Just test it. It's all I'm saying.


If you're capable of throwing out a Bolas, then by this point, they should also be capable of throwing out the BSA while having enough mana open for a Negate, possibly even Double Negative/Cancel.

I have tested it in Grixis Control, and I agree with Tuffy. Whenever I did play it, it was either when I had nothing else to play, and it really wasn't affecting the board much (ie, YAY I BLEW UP THEIR TENTH LAND! ONLY NINE MORE TO GO!), or it was a good play, but an Ultimatum would have been better. Only once did I ever get to take a Baneslayer, and they ended up killing it before it dealt any damage to them. I believe there's a card for 4B that kills a creature or land, and the controller discards a card, or something like that. I would have rather had that card than Bolas.


I don't understand why you would lie just to get your point across. If they have 9 lands out and no creature to take control of, you win. You obviously tested it like twice, while I ran the deck for about 2 months. Nicol Bolas in play was GG every single time without exception that I know of. Its good against every single deck and I would only sideboard it out against mono red or boros.

If they have negate and baneslayer that late you haven't done your job by playing enough threats/creature destruction before hand. This deck differs from the other control decks by having all sorts of "must deal with" cards.
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fatherphil



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he was asing for results, so I gave him my results with it. only game I played vs it.

and agreeing with the p4 dudes. Rarely loose once nico hits play, even if it is blowing up a land or a planeswalker. I had a dude show me that he drew two baneslayers but was to scared to play them till he had an answer to nico. It's just like playing with the old seals like seal of clensing.. Puts the other player at a stand still
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