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Bant Polymorph: Explore-ing my inner Johnny


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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:37 am    Post subject: Bant Polymorph: Explore-ing my inner Johnny Reply with quote

I was tinkering around trying with Polymorph combo decks, trying to make them faster.
Quote:
My first attempt was to try to use UG to drop a turn 3 Progenitus:
UG offers the following turn 1 plays that make creatures:
    Island -> Wind Zendikon (weak due to burn = land bounce)
    Khalni Garden -> Plant Token (best)
UG offers the following turn 2 acceleration plays:
    land 2-> Everflowing Chalice, kicked once
    land 2-> Explore, land 3 to make this better, run more lands

Turn 3:
    Polymorph at my own creature -> pulls Progenitus

T4: Attack for 10
T5: Attack for 10
The fastest it can possibly win is turn 5 without disruption. Too slow, especially with no way to deal with massive numbers of creatures.
If I stick to UG... this is a bad combo. Too slow, not enough creatures or crowd control.

Ideally, I'd want something like:
    Reliably 5 mana on turn 4...
    T3 DoJ, Garruk, or Something to stall/create board position/tokens
    T4 play Silence, then play Polymorph - or play board position, such as Bestial Menace, and combo T5 or T6
    Or accelerate further and draw more, then play the combo later after a Martial Coup

Quote:
Currently I'm trying to push into the direction of Bant to include white. I've created a version of the deck, but I am still exploring my options.

I'd really appreciate any suggestions to make this deck better. I know that it isn't as solid as other decks out there, but I'd like to see if there is a good build out there.
Quote:
Bant Polymorph Tokens v 0.1
// Lands
4 [WWK] Khalni Garden
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Forest (5)
4 [M10] Terramorphic Expanse
2 [ZEN] Plains (5)
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
2 [M10] Sunpetal Grove
4 [WWK] Halimar Depths
3 [ALA] Seaside Citadel

// Creatures
2 [M10] Bogardan Hellkite
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [WWK] Terastodon

// Spells
4 [WWK] Everflowing Chalice
4 [WWK] Explore
4 [M10] Polymorph
4 [WWK] Treasure Hunt
2 [WWK] Marshal's Anthem
4 [WWK] Bestial Menace
2 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
2 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [CFX] Martial Coup
Trying to run 27 land (4 Halimar Depths) to increase the functionality of Explore and Treasure Hunt. May need more sac-lands and less CiPt lands.

I want to put 4 Silence in the main deck as my way to ensure the combo works. But I can't figure out what to cut. I'd also want 2 Negates. Maybe -1 Chalice, -1 Treasure Hunt, -1 Explore, -1 Hellkite, -1 Land? .. No. I really don't want to cut anything right now.Those can't be the right cards to cut. The deck gets better with more card draw/acceleration. Explore and Treasure Hunt work well with a higher concentration of lands in the deck. And if I am going to devote myself to these 2 spells, I'm really gonna devote myself to them and go 4 of each, or none and 2 less land-> and go 4x Divination, 6x Extra utility. But I like the prospect of accelerating the combo.

And I almost want a discard outlet somehow. Possibly in the form of a Mind Spring that makes my hand too big.

Quote:
Priorities right now are to create a deck that provides good chances of:
1) Survival to mid-game (when the combo should go off).
2) Having the combo in hand.
3) Protecting the combo.
4) Having a combo that is powerful enough to warp the game state.
5) Having additional alternatives / win cons for when the combo initially fails.

1-3 need to be really reliable and consistent. For this to be a good combo.

If I were to rate the deck on each of these 5 areas, I'd say:
1) B can be improved. could use additional instants, but there's not enough room
2) B+
3) F Moves to a B with the inclusion of 4x Silence and to an A with the inclusion of 4x Silence and 3-4x Negate. But other areas will suffer.
4) A- especially good because the rest of the deck runs wraths and token bodies
5) B Marshall's Anthem/Hard Casting/Token beatdown

Overall, I rate the deck:
C/C- but if 4x Silence can be included without hurting survival, it moves up to a B/B+
Razz
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mostly tried to make a Polymorph Combo after hearing combomaster try to explain that Bloodghast would be good in a Polymorph deck... :/

I'm approaching it from the direction of:
Let's Survive! - making the deck stall primarily.
Then Edit! - honing the deck once it has a decent survival strategy.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polymorph combo is bad because you don't win the instant the combo goes off. It is rather like a graveyard recursion deck or manaramp deck, making high-powered stuff happen earlier than it is supposed to.

http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/about12589.html
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Vedrfolner - I agree. And thanks for the link.

Hypergenesis is so much better than Polymorph....

But I'm trying! Lol.
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SoloRenegade



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think primarily the best way to pull this off is build a planeswalker control deck and throw polymorph in. Don't base the deck on the combo, use the combo as an alternative win and for an explosive move.

think of it as a support combo not a hard combo lock.

// Lands
4 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
4 [WWK] Khalni Garden
2 [M10] Sunpetal Grove
2 [M10] Glacial Fortress
4 [WWK] Halimar Depths
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
3 [ZEN] Forest (6)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Plains (3)

// Creatures
1 [WWK] Terastodon
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [WWK] Avenger of Zendikar
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
3 [CFX] Martial Coup
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [WWK] Bestial Menace
4 [WWK] Everflowing Chalice
4 [M10] Rampant Growth
4 [M10] Polymorph
3 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Untested list and needs SB, but I feel it goes in a much safer direction. If polymorph fails you can try to win off the token support with planeswalkers.
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Churros_X



Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P_P4E wrote:
// Lands
4 [WWK] Khalni Garden
4 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
3 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
2 [WWK] Stirring Wildwood
2 [WWK] Halimar Depths
2 [ALA] Plains (3)
2 [ALA] Island (2)
5 [ALA] Forest (1)

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [M10] Rampant Growth
3 [ARB] Trace of Abundance
4 [WWK] Explore
3 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [M10] Polymorph
4 [M10] Negate
3 [CFX] Martial Coup
3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 3 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
SB: 4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
SB: 3 [ALA] Bant Charm
SB: 3 [M10] Silence

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Nevian



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the Bant Poly deck I am testing, very similar to yours.

// Lands
2 [UNH] Forest
4 [WWK] Khalni Garden
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [UNH] Plains
3 [UNH] Island
3 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
3 [WWK] Halimar Depths
2 [M10] Terramorphic Expanse
2 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
2 [M10] Sunpetal Grove

// Creatures
1 [M10] Bogardan Hellkite
1 [WWK] Terastodon
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
3 [ALA] Angelsong
4 [M10] Polymorph
4 [WWK] Everflowing Chalice
3 [CFX] Martial Coup
3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
2 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [WWK] Explore
4 [WWK] Treasure Hunt
2 [WWK] Marshal's Anthem
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is rampant growth not just better than chalice?
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here you go. This deck is actually O.K.

// Lands
4 [WWK] Khalni Garden
4 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
2 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
2 [M10] Glacial Fortress
2 [M10] Sunpetal Grove
4 [ALA] Plains (3)
2 [ALA] Island (2)
3 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [M10] Rampant Growth
3 [ARB] Trace of Abundance
4 [WWK] Explore
3 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [M10] Polymorph
3 [M10] Negate
2 [CFX] Martial Coup
3 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ALA] Bant Charm
SB: 3 [M10] Silence
SB: 4 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension

Runs like a mixture of junk and control. You don't auto lose to anything aggro or anything control...and the potential for the turn 3 polymorph against vamps or mono red or something like that makes this at least as good as any bant control list, if not better.

EDIT: I made this BEFORE the PT or anything in the meta was sussed out. Changes could/should be made in many areas obviously.

Not saying its amazing, but I played it to O.K. success.
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Crazyfox



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running a version with plenty of creatures. When I want to pull of Polymorph, I cast Selective memory to remove all unnecessary creatures from the library. Then Polymorph on something like KotWO. Cool concept, been working on it for the last... 48 hours. Neutral
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
Why wouldn't you people just settle on running the best creature that wins you the game rather than four different ones? Just have two or whatever different ones in your sideboard for rfg from the library effects and different matches.

Highlander creatures seems fucking stupid to me unless I am missing something.


If you get Iona when you wanted Progenitus and vice versa, it is unfortunate yes. Run Progenitus main and Iona in the side (2 of each). If they can deal with Progenitus, it is unlikely they can deal with Iona as well. You do need an answer to Baneslayer Angel main, though. As it will likely outpace both.
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was running a standard build, I would have run just one type of creature. I was trying something different, with Marshall's Anthem, so I don't want 2 of legndaries or things that go back into the deck when they die. Anthem is probably the wrong card, though. Especially since I use multiple creatures instead of just one.

Reevaluating:

Progenitus is good, but it needs support. On its own it can't race aggro decks. Probably the best creature with Iona to pull against control.

Against Vamps: I want Iona.
Against Control: Probably Progenitus. Or Iona.
Against Creature decks: Bogardan Hellkite. Terastadon is decent, too. I do not want Progenitus here. Unless I have massive support/stall.

Game 1: I think you always want Iona. Only a few decks can remove her in multiple colors. WU
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think 1 genitus and 1 iona is fine. You want a progenitus just in case it gets discarded or you draw both and find a way to put it back, etc.

With just progenitus you obviously can't cast it. I like being able to cast the iona.

So aggro is overrunning you with a turn 3-4-5 progenitus? You need more anti-aggro cards sir.
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P_P4E wrote:
So aggro is overrunning you with a turn 3-4-5 progenitus? You need more anti-aggro cards sir.


Sounds like clean, perfect sense, to me.
Mind you, agrro only overran me in my first (unlisted and very, very bad) build.

Honestly, I'm not the biggest fan of this deck, competitively, but it is a good exercise to practice my deck building (especially with combos/control). I love the 2nd place Open the Vaults deck. Cleanest OtV list I've seen. And as he says from his video, -2 Jace, +1 Island, +1 Courier Capsule is really nice.
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