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aggro combo...thoughts


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combomaster



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject: aggro combo...thoughts Reply with quote

for along time ive been struggling with the fact that combo just plain isnt good enough in the t2 meta but it got me to thinking why is that?
well i thought for one reason if the combo fails for wat ever reason you have no game and you have to stall either with counters or creature removal....and the combo's in t2 are fragile...
But seeing the emergance of stoneforge mystic decks and the success of summoners trap decks got me thinking.
In both those deck if you dont pull summoners or mystic its no big loss you can still go on to win of course those cards are helpfull to wining.
so comparing those decks to say a runeflare deck or polymorph deck.runeflare decks give card advantage to the other person as well as you and are easily disrupted by killing draw and disrupting hand and only vertually has one win condition.polymorph decks try to draw lots of cards into polymorph the downside to this is the fact they might draw into their win con rather than polymorph or they may have polymorph countered or disrupted out of their hand and it only has one win con polymorph.
Which gets me to my point why play a combo deck that only has one win con when the combo is fragile....

I havent tried puting this deck together yet but this is food for thought vampires is playing r/b and mono black..
this could be a bad idea since this is all in my head but why not play it a u/b play aggro combo i would have thought bloodgast would be the ultimite target for polymorph since it comes back when you play lands then you also have life gain with vampire night hawk as polymorphs targets silde in 2 progenitus slide in some new jace love and yeah it could work........

im open to any thoughts about this as this deck is only in theory practice could be different..
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm...not quite sure I'm following here, teammate. If I get the basic jist of this, your idea is to make something like a Vampire Polymorph deck?

Quote:
i would have thought bloodgast would be the ultimite target for polymorph since it comes back when you play lands


The thing with Polymorph (and other decks like It's a Trap! and Legacy's Natural Order) is that, when it turns one creature into another, or has an opportunity to put a creature directly into play, is that it had better be a damned good one for the trouble. Progenitus, Iona, and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are probably the favorite targets for that, and with good reason: they're fucking good once they hit the field! The problem, most times, is getting them to hit the field to begin with.

Bloodghast, however, is pretty much the exact opposite of those kinds of card: it's not hard AT ALL to get onto the field, nor is it a game-changing card by itself. If I'm gonna go through the trouble of getting some token onto the field, or playing a Llanowar Elf, then spending 3U and a card to turn it into another creature, it had damn well better be something that will end the game for me in a few turns. Vampires are nice and all, I like the deck, but there really doesn't seem to be too much reason to try to Polymorph into any of them.
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combomaster



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no no in this deck polymorph would be killing off a vamp hopefully bloodghast going into progenitus or iona sheild of emeria but this is a idea of not just playing combo but playing aggro as well with vamps because polymorph combo by its self is fragile hence it hasnt won very much on ml and hasnt featured in the outside ml t2 meta.....this is just a new way of thinking like how fae was aggro control playing polymorph in a more aggro type deck seems an obvious choice just like how vamps some people are playing r/b for burn ect this might be another choice..it should be alright
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

combomaster wrote:
no no in this deck polymorph would be killing off a vamp hopefully bloodghast going into progenitus or iona sheild of emeria but this is a idea of not just playing combo but playing aggro as well with vamps because polymorph combo by its self is fragile hence it hasnt won very much on ml and hasnt featured in the outside ml t2 meta.....this is just a new way of thinking like how fae was aggro control playing polymorph in a more aggro type deck seems an obvious choice just like how vamps some people are playing r/b for burn ect this might be another choice..it should be alright


The issue is, what if you hit another small creature? like another Bloodghast? You can't play polymorph in a deck with any creatures except the big fatty you're trying to morph out because you are going to hit all your terrible creatures first. I have no clue how you think this would work.
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combomaster



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good point i did think that polmorph searched for some reason but still here has to be a way of making a combo such as polymorph more competitive...and adding another win con or something the opening of this forum post was for discussion purposes i mean what i am saying is still viable with maybe the new jace and maybe playing things that alow you to look at the cards before you polymorph.....
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, okay, I see what you're trying to do here.

It can work, but it's a bit more fragile than regular Polymorph because you could end up morphing from one Bloodghast to another.
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Insom



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure what playing bloodghast really gives you. Most decks are going to have 3 toughness creatures out pretty fast, many before you even get a chance to swing with him.
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, you can't play creatures in a polymorph deck. It completely defeats the purpose of Polymorph.
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kfcman



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your best bet for a deck designed around polymorph would be, imo, a UW control like deck with a base simillar to chapin/nassif/heezy's deck from San Diego. That shell with maybe a couple dread statuary in place of a couple tectonic edge. With a couple of choice fatties.

Basic UW control strategy in the early game, followed up by powering up a manland and morphing it into a progenitus or whatever catches your fancy.

You'd have more card selection like ponder than the chapin deck so you could get around faster.
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kfcman



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your best bet for a deck designed around polymorph would be, imo, a UW control like deck with a base simillar to chapin/nassif/heezy's deck from San Diego. That shell with maybe a couple dread statuary in place of a couple tectonic edge. With a couple of choice fatties.

Basic UW control strategy in the early game, followed up by powering up a manland and morphing it into a progenitus or whatever catches your fancy.

You'd have more card selection like ponder than the chapin deck so you could get around faster.
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JustKenny



Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

liliana anyone? its already a good card in vamps and it cam make sure you polymorph into what you need
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maddawg wrote:
liliana anyone? its already a good card in vamps and it cam make sure you polymorph into what you need


Are you the same guy that tried to compare Liliana with Jace?
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zantetsuken wrote:
could try the the land enchantments for Polymorph targets.... like Wind Zendikon and so forth


I played against that deck in the trial, it didn't stand a chance. If you destroy the creature that's being morphed, or just counter the morph, they can't do anything.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The less the deck revolves around havings its combo go off, the worse it is. It is in the combodeck's nature that it is fragile. It is one card combined with another that creates a winning situation, so if it is disrupted there is no winning situation. It is as simple as that.

Polymorph in a deck entirely without creatures other than the very best one(s) IS a combo though. However, it is a bad combo. The reason for this is that when it goes off, you do not win the game.
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loki3



Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread makes me so sad...
Polymorph + Bloodghast = wrong. It is nice that you can bring him back to play to sac again though. Polymorph would be a funny way to break a stalemate, but Vamps have better cards they can use.

Because of this thread, I had to go out and attempt to make a Polymorph deck from scratch.

Quote:
Polymorph needs to have a huge impact on the game state:
    Bogarden Hellkite
    Iona
    Terastodon

Other things with shroud or protection from your opponent's colors are alright, but they can't help you survive.


I do like the thought of having Polymorph in a deck in a way that Polymorph isn't the only way to win. A deck that has other solid plays. I don't believe that's what you meant, though.

Unfortunately, Polymorph restricts you to other big creatures, and thus multiple combo cards:
    Like Polymorph + Open the Vaults
    Or Polymorph + Summoning Trap
Problem is, Combo decks have a hard enough time surviving already in standard. Combining 2 Combo decks makes them weaker b/c the decks are very different. Polymorph and Summoning Trap are probably the closest to each other, because they can run in a deck with acceleration/wraths/tokens for stall/stall and then drop the combo to win. But it is really hard to make the idea even remotely competitive. Good luck, though. Razz
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