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UG Control


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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: UG Control Reply with quote

With the new set worldwake the best new toys are in green and blue, yet I have seen relatively little discussion about possible UG decks. Sadly I can not really test the damn deck atm, until the cards come out on modo so this is a very provisional list.

UG(w) Control

4 noble heirarch
2 path to exile
4 rampant growth
4 Explore
4 Negate
3 remove soul
2 into the roil
4 Calcite Snapper
3 Garruk wildspeaker
3 Jace the mind sculptor
3 Sphinx of the Jwar isle

4 misty rainforest
4 seaside citadel
3 island
3 Celestial Colonade
3 Sunpetal Grove
7 forest

Sb

4 Spreading seas
4 acidic slime
4 Flash freeze
3 rhox war monk

The main attraction to playing both green and blue together for me is the opportunity to play Garruk and Jace together. With these too sitting side by side on the board together, the defence, offense and card advantage they produce feels so powerful that its just hard to beat once the set up is in place.

So the deck looks to accelerate into these early then defend them until there power winís you the game.

A selection of bounce, counters and removal and shrouded creatures provide additional support to the two walkers. Convertible turtle can go on offense all on his own if needed whilst you defend your lead. Sphinx of the Jwar Isle is also mighty good at ending games fast.

A slight white splash has been added for path to exile with a respectful nod towards BSA, between the two paths, 3 remove soul, jace and into the roil hopefully the angel can be controlled. Now a splash for 2 paths may not seem very worthwhile, but this also gets the added bonus of allowing me to run some Man lands in celestial colonnade, which are just to good to pass up and the effect on the actual mana base is minimal.

The Sideboard options in UG actually give you a great base to attack jund with spreading seaís flash freeze and acidic slime.

Slime is good vs almost any control deck in fact slime + jace is controls worst nightmare.

Rhox war monk comes in vs aggro is a big body that can get you up on life vs aggro which will prob side out any non burn removal vs you. Most of the burn Monk is to big to get hit by so even better.

Thoughts, ideaís, possible problems and solutions to them all appreciated.


Last edited by OldBear on Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it.

I think you have too much "ramp" and not enough "beef" though.

You also lack...control? I mean... you have c-spells and some bounce, but you dont really have much removal or any mass removal.

I'm certain that White belongs in the deck more. Baneslayer on 3 (UBER possible) seems too good.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with running BSA apart from the price tag is it gives them a good target for there removal. Currently Terminates, path to exile, bit blast, have no good targets in this deck. Making spot removal close to redundant vs the deck.

They can hit a beast token or a Noble Heirarch but its nots a great use of any of those removal spells.

I kind of agree on the ramp front, Im not ceratin if the heirach is needed i do not likt the fact it does give them a target for removal, even if pte a hierach is an outright dumb play.

Its just vs other control mirrors which are going to be alot more common now with jace going turn 1 heirach, turn 2 Snapper, is going to win alot of games.

I can see going down a remove soul in fact and up a pte, as vampires gets better as well and nighthawk is a pest.
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spudfuss



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can see going down a remove soul in fact and up a pte

I could see dropping all remove souls as they aren't legal.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha yeah good point essence scatter it is.
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xDem0n



Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why not wall of denial if youre going for shrouded blockers? 0/8 flying laughs at BSA
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on meta wall could be good.

My reasons for not starting it off in the list is the mana and the fact its not a threat by itself.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After pondering the deck a while longer, I am thinking maybe an o-ring for a negate, as it also answers oppsing planeswalkers.

Makes for some neat plays when they play a second pw with into the roil and answers any other problem spell also, that new deathtouch lifelink equip could potentially pose problems for the deck and this handles that as well.

Plus aside from cruel ultimatum there is not to many spells this deck will want to negate that o-ring can not handle just as well.

Also contemplating a few martial coup by the time i get to 7 mana i should have 2 white avaliable.

UG(w) Control

4 noble heirarch
2 path to exile
4 rampant growth
4 Explore
3 Negate
2 remove soul
2 into the roil
4 Calcite Snapper
1 Oblivion ring
3 Garruk wildspeaker
3 Jace the mind sculptor
3 Sphinx of the Jwar isle
1 Martial Coup

4 misty rainforest
4 seaside citadel
2 island
3 Celestial Colonade
3 Sunpetal Grove
7 forest

Sb

4 Spreading seas
4 acidic slime
4 Flash freeze
3 rhox war monk

Updated list after feedback and sometime for my mind to think it through. Added a sweeper and an o-ring for a negate and remove soul to give the deck more direct answers to threats.
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Oop



Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

by not "running" white but still raping your manabase by splashing for white cards... your basically just playing a shitty version of bant control... I would suggest just going all the way and playing real spells
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Via



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Garruk, but in this deck you won't take much advantage of his powerful overrun ability. Also the beast making is not so elegant in all-shroud theme deck.

I play UG too, but more midrange. Turtle + planeswalkers is nice indeed.

The four land Garruk ramp into sphinx is nice, but not so powerful like, let's say untaping two lands for also six mana Rampaging Baloths and then throw in a fetchland right after.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its only 2 colours effectivly and the manabase is almost entirely unaffected by the splash, it plays no plains, just cipt tapped lands that can produce white mana, trying looking at the actual base before commenting on the mana base it is in fact very good.

I would be playing Seaside citadel even if I was 2 colours, the 3 sunpetal grove have practically no draw back in this deck, which makes adding a few man lands an attractive idea. Oh an I also have Heirach, Explore and Rampant growth. Bad mana, more like bad reading on your part.

Jace draws cards, garruk can produce card advantage (same thing), explore draws a card, into the roil can draw a card. Martial Coup can produce Card advatage, the lack of good removal targets in the deck will give the opponentsdeck alot of dead cards, also card advantage. Once agin learn to read.

Really a defensive deck thats control gee thats new and this is not ext pte is better than bant charm.

Im playing the only Fetch which is on colour, this deck hard want to be splashing for fetches than can only fetch 1 land type.

The garruk thing is a clear problem though, but I do not think its huge really except vs jund.
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how I'm the guy who gets shit for being negative, but everyone in this thread is and nobody says anything about it.

The internet is cool.


Anyway, I just think if you're going to go the route of playing a deck with UG in it, you have to find a specific reason to do so. Like someone said, its just a worse version of bant control.

Maybe test out the Loreskin Coatl (or w/e it is) + Jace deck Gro deck. Fragile, granted, but drawing cards that just happen to make a guy bigger doesn't seem all that bad to me.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SugarShark wrote:
well you're safe
no one plays jund

or eladrazi green

or bant

or vamps

isn't that like the whole t2 gauntlet?

accelerate into 2 planeswalkers and defend, indeed


Not like i rape jund after board and all there removal is dead vs me, there are alot of control decks now also that this is good vs, vamps can be handled though obv mind sludge can be a problem. Bant is not that good as it just plays into all the removal, which is exacly what this deck is trying to avoid.

I mean is that suppose to be an argument cause if it is you need to learn how to argue beyond the level of a 12 year old.
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Bantos86



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trotsky1 wrote:
After pondering the deck a while longer, I am thinking maybe an o-ring for a negate, as it also answers oppsing planeswalkers.

Makes for some neat plays when they play a second pw with into the roil and answers any other problem spell also, that new deathtouch lifelink equip could potentially pose problems for the deck and this handles that as well.

Plus aside from cruel ultimatum there is not to many spells this deck will want to negate that o-ring can not handle just as well.

Also contemplating a few martial coup by the time i get to 7 mana i should have 2 white avaliable.

UG(w) Control

4 noble heirarch
2 path to exile
4 rampant growth
4 Explore
3 Negate
2 remove soul
2 into the roil
4 Calcite Snapper
1 Oblivion ring
3 Garruk wildspeaker
3 Jace the mind sculptor
3 Sphinx of the Jwar isle
1 Martial Coup

4 misty rainforest
4 seaside citadel
2 island
3 Celestial Colonade
3 Sunpetal Grove
7 forest

Sb

4 Spreading seas
4 acidic slime
4 Flash freeze
3 rhox war monk

Updated list after feedback and sometime for my mind to think it through. Added a sweeper and an o-ring for a negate and remove soul to give the deck more direct answers to threats.


Trotsky1 wrote:
Not like i rape jund after board and all there removal is dead vs me, there are alot of control decks now also that this is good vs, vamps can be handled though obv mind sludge can be a problem. Bant is not that good as it just plays into all the removal, which is exacly what this deck is trying to avoid.

I mean is that suppose to be an argument cause if it is you need to learn how to argue beyond the level of a 12 year old.


Holy crap dude, why post a deck if you're not going to be able to handle criticism? "BAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW THEY DON'T LIEK MAH DECK!"

The problem with your deck is you don't have enough control elements. You focus far too much on ramp, and not enough on actually being a control deck. Let's analyze this deck:

You have a total of 5 counterspells. Being only 2 colors (well, I guess 3 now, though you label this deck as two), you should have more room than 3 color control decks to put in more counters to make up for the lack of removal.

You run 2 Path to Exile. I shouldn't need to explain why this is utterly stupid. Run 4. Period.

You have a total of 12 ramp spells. Control doesn't need ramp. You also don't have much to ramp into, since your most expensive card is 6 mana. That's not worth 12 valuable slots.

You have a total of 5 targeted removal spells, 2 of which don't answer the problem, but instead just bounce it to come back later, 1 of which can be destroyed, and the threat it removed brought back.

You have a total of 1 mass removal spell. Which is pure idiocy. UR/Grixis runs at least 3 Earthquake. UW runs at least 2 DoJ and 2 Martial Coup, sometimes 3/2, sometimes 3/3. ADD MOAR!

Garruk doesn't fit a control deck, especially when you have him for no other purpose than more ramp. YOU HAVE ENOUGH FUCKING RAMP!

You have basically no card draw. Cantrips don't count as card draw, especially when the card is more useful for the cantrip than the actual card effect (Explore).

You run 23 lands. I don't care how much ramp you have, 23 lands is not enough for a control deck. Miss a drop, and you might as well scoop. Increase lands to 25 bare minimum, aim for 26.

Now, let's compare this to another 2-color control deck:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: Untitled Deck

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [WWK] Halimar Depths
4 [ALA] Crumbling Necropolis
8 [ZEN] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Mountain (1)
2 [WWK] Tectonic Edge

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Calcite Snapper
3 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
4 [WWK] Treasure Hunt
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
3 [M10] Earthquake
3 [M10] Negate
3 [M10] Essence Scatter
3 [ARB] Double Negative
2 [ZEN] Into the Roil
2 [M10] Mind Spring


Let's start with creatures. It has the same number as you do. +1 for you.

Now let's look at counterspells. It has 9: 3 that hits spells, 3 that hits creatures, and 3 that hits both, as well as raep cascade. You ran 5: 3 for spells, 2 for creatures. This > yours.

Now for targeted removal. This has 6 targeted removal: 4 Bolts and 2 Roil. You ran 5: 2 Path, 2 Roil and 1 O-Ring. This > yours, due to the fact that even though it runs close to the same amount of removal as yours, it has more counters, and therefore requires the removal less often.

Now for card draw. This has 9: 4 Treasure Hunt, 3 Jace, 2 Mind Spring. You ran 3: 3 Jace. This > yours.

Now for ramp. This has none. You ran 12: 4 Noble Hierarch, 4 Rampant Growth, and 4 Explore. This > yours, because control doesn't need to ramp.

Now for mass removal. This runs 3: 3 Earthquake. You ran 1: 1 Martial Coup. This > yours.

And finally, lands. This runs 26. You ran 23. This > yours, because with more lands, it becomes less likely that I need to ramp in order to maintain dropping lands each turn.

Also note than I can afford to use Jace as a bouncer, but you can't. Every time you do, you lose a chance to draw cards. Every time I do, I can still use a Treasure Hunt or Mind Spring.

In short, drop green entirely. It offers absolutely nothing that control needs. If you want to play UG decks, your best bet is Polymorph.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It started well then the idiots took over, the thing is you can not even read half the things you say about the deck are wrong i can't be bothered to waste my time pointing out all the inaccurcies in your statements.

I take crtiticism when its good not from fucking retards.

and for the record in fucking something like 20-2 in modo tourni practice last time that happened angelfire was born.
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