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Don't tell me magic isn't chance


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
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Araeliz



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmm

Last edited by Araeliz on Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can wizards print cards to make wins "more consistent"? Other people will just play said cards and then proceed to whine about them. Think Baneslayer Angel.

If you can't take losing, go play go fish. Simple as that, kids.
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Femt



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop complaining guys. You canīt find a single card game that isnīt luck based.
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SoloRenegade



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These people defusing the luck factor and claiming it can always be beaten out by skill...must not have played for long.

The games skill at it's raw form is manipulating the luck really. Sure there's some psychological warfare and some smart moves you got to make, but really it's doing things that will in hopes yield the best results statistically.

The issue is there's too much gambling and hoping your deck doesnt' fuck you and not enough skill. You have to be shitting me to say you have beaten every inferior player. I have seen pros lose to scrubs before, simply because of shit luck. And it's not rare, it's very common. Land fucks, land screws, opponent getting perfect hands (seriously fuck early game combo decks), colors screw, drawing all high CC and no low CC. There's a LOT of factors that can fuck over making all the right moves.

Remember Raffinity? WOTC reported you can make 60% the WRONG move and still more than likely win simply because the deck was so retardedly consistent vs the other match ups. Sure you could play a counter ,but that counter got owned by other MUs...then you get into the luck of MU's. Pray to god your anti-artifact deck didn't play goblins.

I still play the game, but only when it's fresh with a new set. Once it settles into tiers, it's really just a huge luckfest of MU's and whoevers deck fucks em first. It's not hard to play this game well. The depth of the "skill" factor is very limiting when you compare it to other game styles such as a Fighter or a Shooter. In magic, if you bring the right deck, you can take down the best person in the world...you just gotta play a few games and wait for the luck...and hope it's on the win the matters.

The "stop QQing" crowd really needs to reinterpret the message. It's not bitching, it's asking for change to obvious flaws. If you fight this than your simply announcing you are satisfied that expensive competitive card games are at their best when a large luck factor that can fuck over a better player is present. If their are options and ideas to improve the game and make it better overall, what sense does it make to fight that change?

Magic has a ton of options it can adapt to it's gameplay to fix these issues. It's logic...not pointless bitching.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloRenegade wrote:
Once it settles into tiers, it's really just a huge luckfest of MU's and whoevers deck fucks em first.


So guys like Finkel and Budde are just really lucky?
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SoloRenegade



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanik wrote:
SoloRenegade wrote:
Once it settles into tiers, it's really just a huge luckfest of MU's and whoevers deck fucks em first.


So guys like Finkel and Budde are just really lucky?
Partly, but it comes down to a few factors.

Ability to travel...lets be honest how many magic players can buy the cards, afford to travel, and have the time to? The gives a limited pool of players right there.

Next, the REAL skill of magic. The real skill of magic is studying meta shifts. It's unwise to simply pick one deck and try to ride it out through a season. As decks win people begin to shift what decks they use and what variations. A Good player does the homework and builds a deck specific to each tournament. A lot of players simply just bring a good net deck without proper consideration.

As well you have team factors...that play right back into point 1 and 2. So people with the ability to play the game pro and are collectively planning decks...significantly improve their odds. Now game skill is a factor too, but once again...the game has a very shallow depth of skill. It's not hard to play your deck right if you understand the game and the meta.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

solorenegade if you feel so strongly that luck is such a huge factor then maybe you should not play competitively anymore
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Jedidawn



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Femt wrote:
Stop complaining guys. You canīt find a single card game that isnīt luck based.

Contract Bridge wants a word with you
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luck is a factor, the game is becoming more luck based, this is inevitable with power creep. I like the luck factor its what makes the game exciting.

The thing is wizards are not trying to appeal to the players who are the most skilled, they are trying to appeal to the casual market there biggest market. Who do not like things overly complicated so there research has told them.

I like long complicated drawn out games of mental endurance but most people just like turning there 5/5 flying lifelink sideways for 4 turns and winning. The best thing you can do it stop playing type 2, extd and get into formats like 100 card singleton and commander EDH. Alot more complicated and skill based if thats what your looking for. Also has the advnatge there is alot more room for innovation as they are unruined by the pros formats. Though 100 singleton is losing that status a bit, since it became a money format on modo.

But commander also adds the strategic element of negoiating 3 players. Plus you start with 40 life, so mana screw is less punishing the fomrmat is alot more about big spells as a consequence and regulary players who are mana screwed for 4-5 even more turns come back to win the game as everyone just ignores them.

Also you would do well as people have said to be more reflective. You may well be losing games alot of games to bad luck the better you become the more that happens. However if that really was the case and you've been playing for long enough your rating would be in atleast the 1900's and then you would still be losing games to play errors. If your ratings not in that sort of area, its not luck that is your biggest problem and recognising that is prob the first step to getting better.
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Don't whine.

2. WotC never has denied the game has luck as a factor.

3. The game didn't get more luck based, stop lying just because you can accept you suck at this.

4. Lands are deckbuilder's problem, not WotC problem.

______________________

Some guys said Magic could be improved and I agree. Maybe if you could remove any card to make it a colorless source of mana the game would be a bit more playable.

In case of making that change of a very similar one, WotC would have to balance the game in some form. Let's see The Spoils TCG for example (from WotC too): In this game you can play any card from your hand face down and use it as a resource (is similar to a land). You have 5 kinds of resources (the equivalent of mana in that game).

Besides their cost (which is always colorless), the cards have a threshold (do not mistake for the MtG ability). The Spoils threshold is the lesser number of resources (from one or more kinds) in play you must have in order to play a card. The threshold is shown as an icon in each card (some cards don't have threshold, some cards have threshold 1, 2, 3, etc).

The game also limits possible abuse of its features. You play with something similar to a Planeswalkers (a faction card in the game), it works like some kind of enchantment with lifes and abilities. When the lifes on it are reduced to zero you lose the game. The same enchantment allows you to choose between draw or play a resource in that turn. Which balance the possible abuse of their solution to mana screw.

For more info:

http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/view.php?pg=media (you can find the rulings here: basic and comprehensive)

http://thespoilschest.googlepages.com/
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the game did get more luck based certainly the current t2 and to a lessar extent extd even this limited format the playing not drafting part is a not very testing affair.

Underpowered sets lead to more skill intensive formats, as there are less blow outs, games go long more decisions have to be made, more oppertunity for error, so with the obvious power creep happening at the moment particullary the large amount of under costed creatures and shorter games the game got more luck based.

Naturally the longer a game goes on the more it favours the more skilled player, thats why pro's love control decks.

Finally telling someone you've never played, at a game of magic they suck at it or in general, does'nt make people think your a good player, all it really shows is your frustrated your not the player you wish u were.
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tip, Players make mistakes every game. There have been countless pro players who have said this, and even said they do too! Mistakes can come not only from gameplay, but also Mulligans, Deckbuilding, Sideboarding ect. Until you play perfect magic every game, you cannot bitch because I guarantee you have made more mistakes that were costly then getting mana screwed.
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will number what you said to reply accordingly

Trotsky1 wrote:
1)Yes the game did get more luck based certainly the current t2 and to a lessar extent extd even this limited format the playing not drafting part is a not very testing affair.

2)Underpowered sets lead to more skill intensive formats, as there are less blow outs, games go long more decisions have to be made, more oppertunity for error, so with the obvious power creep happening at the moment particullary the large amount of under costed creatures and shorter games the game got more luck based.

3)Naturally the longer a game goes on the more it favours the more skilled player, thats why pro's love control decks.

4)Finally telling someone you've never played, at a game of magic they suck at it or in general, does'nt make people think your a good player, all it really shows is your frustrated your not the player you wish u were.


1) WRONG! The game added a luck based ability: cascade. Still you can control it like people do on Jund and Spreading Seas. That requires skill!

People don't whine about shuffling their library and that's a real random factor. Why? because they're used to that. Wink

2) WRONG! Is not about powered or unpowered sets. Power is always relative, in both kind of sets there will be powered cards in respect to the rest.

Finding powered cards = skill. Powered Cards that aren't noticed easily as one = skill. Powered cards with options = skill.

Mr. Rosewater would like to have a word with you

http://www.wizards.com/MagiC/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/67

3) WRONG! Pros love whatever make them win. Do you mean the first dude who won a big tourney with a Sligh deck wasn't a pro? good lord. The key word in slow winning and fast winning is not slow or fast, is winning.

4) WRONG! Don't twist my words, I said the dude sucked at this and he couldn't accept it. Not that I was better than him. I suck and I can accept it. But you can't improve your game style with a loser attitude where you are blaming any shit except yourself.

As I said MtG can and should be improved, but that doesn't excuse us for making mistakes and having a loser attitude.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've addressed half the issue ignoring there bits where your clearly WRONG!, more decisions to make = more skill try arguing against that bit.

I didnt say pros only play control decks i said they prefer them as they give them the most edge.
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trotsky1 wrote:
You've addressed half the issue ignoring there bits where your clearly WRONG!, more decisions to make = more skill try arguing against that bit.

I didnt say pros only play control decks i said they prefer them as they give them the most edge.


Well, if by saying that you feel better then is ok.
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