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Planar Cleansing / Eldrazi


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Pillsburry



Joined: 17 Oct 2009
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Planar Cleansing / Eldrazi Reply with quote

Planar Cleansing is played and Eldrazi + army of creatures is in play, does everything get wiped out or just Eldrazi ?
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Astarael



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK the creatures survive.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just the Eldarazi thingamajig
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Super_Prep



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah everything gets wiped out, because without Eldrazi the creatures lose indestructible and will go to.
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FiReBLT



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short Answer:

The creatures survive.

Long Answer:

This is because at the time of the Planar Cleansing resolving, it tries to kill every nonland permanent. However, the creatures all have indestructible at this time, but the monument doesn't.

So, the monument dies. The Planar Cleansing, having tried to kill everything, finishes resolving. The creatures no longer have indestructible, but this is irrelevant, since Planar Cleansing has already finished resolving, hence they survive.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FiReBLT wrote:
However, the creatures all have indestructible at this time, but the monument doesn't.


The creatures do not "have" indestructible, they are indestructible. I realize this sounds like semantics or being a grammar nazi, but it is not. "Indestructible" is not an ability, there's no special rules for it, it's simply used as an English word with its English meaning, "cannot be destroyed." So if you have an Eldrazi Monument on the battlefield and your opponent Snakeforms one of your creatures, it will still be indestructible. It will lose flying, however. (Same with a Marit Lage token created by Dark Depths.)

I point this out because a great many of the misunderstandings surrounding something being indestructible comes from the belief that "Indestructible" is an ability.
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Super_Prep



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

QuaziPance wrote:
Mind_Game wrote:
Yeah everything gets wiped out, because without Eldrazi the creatures lose indestructible and will go to.


Just to make it clear to OP. This person is incorrect, all of the others are correct.

see all of the other posts for reasons why.



This is exceptionally untrue and disgustingly incorrect as well, state-based retards come last. Planar Cleansing kills everything in a single go, no waiting just play removal. Your opponent has a few million Baneslayers so what, just play Planar Cleansing, and don't worry about Eldrazi its for losers.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind_Game wrote:
Planar Cleansing kills everything in a single go, no waiting just play removal. Your opponent has a few million Baneslayers so what, just play Planar Cleansing, and don't worry about Eldrazi its for losers.


Planar Cleansing does attempt to destroy everything in a single go, and at that time, the creatures are indestructible, so they cannot be destroyed.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

State-based actions have nothing to do with it (if that is what you're trying to say). Planar Cleansing destroys all nonland permanents in one fell swoop, during its resolution.

At that time, because the Eldrazi Monument is still in play, the creatures are indestructible and are thus not destroyed.

That two seconds after the bang the monument is gone and they are destructible doesn't matter. An explosion doesn't go back to clean up the survivors.

Also, watch the language. Make your point without swearing or don't post at all.
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Super_Prep



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe wizards would make a artifact like that, they should've just made it a 4 mana card and allow it to give everything protection even lands. Then we can play Planar.
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CrushU
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clariax is right, Indestructible is NOT an ability.

Eldrazi makes it so creatures cannot be destroyed, gives them all the Flying ability, and makes all creatures +1/+1.

Snakeform removes the Flying Ability, and makes him 1/1. Eldrazi's +1/+1 is constant and isn't affected by the base P/T of the creature changing (applied in a different layer) and so he is a creature that cannot be destroyed and is 2/2.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'~ is indestructible' is an ability and is removed by Snakeform.

But note that Eldrazi Monument and/or things like Shield of Oversoul don't say they give the creature the ability '~ is indestructible'. They just make them indestructible. This is not an ability and will not be removed by Snakeform.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GnikXela wrote:
Now, I am confused...

700.4a Although the text "[This permanent] is indestructible" is an ability, actually being indestructible is neither an ability nor a characteristic. It's just something that's true about a permanent.


I'm not sure how to interpret this...


Darksteel Colossus has an ability that makes itself indestructible. "Indestructible" itself is not an ability. If you remove the "Darksteel Colossus is indestructible" ability from it, there's nothing that says it is indestructible, so it is not. Eldrazi Monument gives creatures the ability of "flying" and says they are indestructible. So the creature will have the ability "flying" which can be removed, but there's no "Indestructible" ability to remove.
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[R]Nchamay



Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So since an outside source is making the creature indestructable, not an ability the creature has, a card like snakeform would not make a creature effected by eldrazi lose its indestructableness, correct?
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[R]Nchamay wrote:
So since an outside source is making the creature indestructable, not an ability the creature has, a card like snakeform would not make a creature effected by eldrazi lose its indestructableness, correct?

Correct. The monument is not granting them an ability that can be removed.
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