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Blue counterspells are too cheap.


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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister_karas wrote:
People dont seem to understand what Im trying to say.

The plain and simple fact is, 90% of counters that have been printed in the last 4 years have seen play in eternal decks, while less then 10% of creatures have seen play in those same decks.

Does this not prove the simple fact that "counter target spell" is a stupidly powerful line of text compaired to just about anything else in the game?


Sorry, but what exactly is your point?
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister_karas wrote:
People dont seem to understand what Im trying to say.

The plain and simple fact is, 90% of counters that have been printed in the last 4 years have seen play in eternal decks, while less then 10% of creatures have seen play in those same decks.

Does this not prove the simple fact that "counter target spell" is a stupidly powerful line of text compaired to just about anything else in the game?


Simple matter of fact is that 90% of the counterspells have not seen eternal play. Delay? No eternal play. Logic Knot? No real eternal play. Voidslime/Overrule/Whatever? No eternal play. Broken Ambitions/Cancel/Controvert/Convolute/Dismal Failure/etc.? No eternal play. Faerie Trickery/Draining Whelk/Negate/Essence Scatter? No eternal play.

And that's not even a comprehensive list. Some 3 counters have seen relevant eternal play since Ravnica; maybe 6 if you count all the fringe occurrences. Maybe 50 or so have been printed. It's around 10% if we're being generous and closer to 5% when we think about it.


That said, this isn't even a relevant argument. Of course only the best cards see play! If a card is printed for a job that yet lacks a card to perform it, it sees play. This means that vast majority of the creatures will never see play simply because they only exist to attack, but are worse at it than others. This has been emphasized since Goyf was printed; if a creature is a pounder, it needs to be competitive with a 2-mana 5/6 or it's not worth playing.

Guess what? Basically none of the pounder creatures are playable for this very reason. And yet they fill all the common slots in the sets. How often are strictly worse counters printed? Never, 'cause counters are limited to one color and card type and are thus infinitely more rare than creatures.

That's not because creatures are bad, but because a better creature exists. Same is frankly true for counters, in spite of what I said; sure, strictly better counters don't really, but fact is that modern counters just don't compete with Force of Will or Daze in terms of raw efficiency. They compete in terms of roles; only the new counters that fill roles previously not filled (see Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, for example) have any chance of seeing play.


As such, we have thoroughly concluded that not only is your argument entirely invalid, but its very foundations are entirely invalid making this entire thread completely pointless; "counter target spell"-line's abstract power cannot be compared to 5/6's power simply because they have completely different roles in the game and do completely different things.

Hell, there's no such thing as "abstract power"; every effect exists within a context and that context is what determines an effect's power, and that effect's power in turn determines a card's power. Sure, being able to negate about 90% of Magic cards with one card is very powerful, but it's also extremely limited in that you have to have said effect in hand when opponent is playing said card already and the effect can never impact spells already played.

It is also a purely reactive effect and as such, can only be utilized in conjuction with proactive aspects and as such, their value is determined by the proactive aspects in the deck as much as their own contribution. Counters are definitely powerful and absolutely integral to the game as a means to interact with stack-based decks that do not use the battlefield, but the mechanic is inherently balanced by the inability to retroactively answer anything and the inability to actually in any ways kill an opponent with counters.


The knee-jerk reaction against counters OP is experiencing is very common in new players which he seem to be, so he's forgiven the oversight this complaint shows, but I do suggest he tries another perspective instead of proclaiming the end of the world as we know it when encountered with adversities.
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prometheus



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y dO i haf to plAy wit stOOpid combo deck kill u tUrn 1 BAM noTHing u can do AbouT it!!! WTF!!!!!1

edeted for splling
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muskogee



Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok i will play the devil's advocate here...

i get the point of complaining about counterspells and aggro decks. but i do believe when the game envirement changes it allows new decks to become availible like before 7th rotated out of extended all you seen was tog, no stick, the rock, and affinity. but now since counterspell it's self hasn't been reprinted you have more people moving from mono blue and blue black control to either U/R control or tri color control but now days in extended or t/2 if your not playing a deck with a board wipe card wrath, DOJ, Damnation, Earthquake. you pretty much will loose with all the aggro decks aroung and it has created alot of new and different deck idea's to be made and since Zen came along the extended format has changed alot bringing in alot of decent aggro cards and vampires along with the trap deck. which is a good way to play against counter decks. if you really look at it it is a little more versitile to the game it's self ever since the rotation of seventh edition yeah their are some good counters out their like cryptic command and rune snag. but the card draw for blue has actually gone down their for making it harder to play control and most your people playing control now are you veteran magic players. and most your tri color control decks play maybe 12 counters most play 8 and 4 only counter noncreature spells anyway (in T2 atleast) so when it comes down to the control players have more of an argument on this control v.s. aggro arguement but i do think they should reprint counterspell or atleast mana leak to give control in T2 more of a chance. b/c their are so many creatures that can't be countered out their in ext and i believe like 4 in t2 so really think about your argument next time
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HdH_Cthulhu



Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah bitching about countering spells is so old than the game itself.

Thtas my View
Legacy: Fow is the one broken card that holds the format together.
Vintage: To random, you counter 3 key spells than they resolve a Yagwmoths Will or a draw 7 and you loose...
Ext: All this snares, and snags around, kinda like these faerie decks!
T2: I dont like Cancel : (
Casual: I just love to annoy people with odd counterspell.decks
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PakTu



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehehe I only made this topic on reponse to the black having great creature skills. I didn't think it was going to last this long.
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Shagrath



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: .... Reply with quote

This post is so idiotic that i felt i had to say something..
So, you say that wotc should stop making cspell cards.... my answer is.... u must be retarded or something..... Blue is the color that wizards are trying to destroy by all means / Great Sable Stag, the continuous reprint of bad counters like cancel, essence scatter, negate, etc.......
Wotc is trying to turn magic into a brainless game like yu-gi-oh is by destroying the blue color, which is , like we all know, the weakest color from all the recent sets...( and mechanics like trap cards are well known from yu-gi-oh, so wotc is definitely trying to persuade little kids to play magic instead of yu-gi-oh......HASBRO is destroying the game that we all love just because of money...... I hope that something will change in the near future....
To end this post, we can see how is when blue is the worst color by this horrid t2 metagame, where horrible decks like jund are dominant.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is the guy who complains that creatures are getting too good, and feels the only way to deal with a creature is to counter it.

Quote:
And I know Im going to get people like jon comming in and saying that blues been nurfed untill the end of time, but in the end, every set since I started playing (ravnica) has introduced a good counter for eternal, but I can only think of 1 creature that is considerd a staple for eternal since then (tarm)


This is the guy who pretends he can label people based on one thing they say, moreso on the internets. People who only play T2 and read up on older formats occasionally act like this, saying douche things like counterspells are too good.

If you really played older formats, you'd complain about other broken things blue has to offer, such as fishing up four particular cards from your deck and then preventing your opponent from ever making a decision on their turn for the rest of the game. Or drawing three cards for a steep price of one mana. Or paying U2 and sacrificing the Mox Sapphire you used to pay said 2U to get an 11/11 indestructible or a 7/11 Islandwalk, Trample, Shroud. Or getting infinite turns via a certain planeswalker.

If the game was THAT imbalanced that counterspells truly ruined it, there would be more talk about it than on magic-league (and other related) forums.

And yes, the creatures are getting mighty good lately. But you wouldn't know what creatures were like before this shift in power, since you've only been playing since Ravnica.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't recall a standard tier 1 drawgo since invasion block rotated out.

They didn't need to hit counterspells to avoid drawgo being completely dominant like then, mechanics like cascade do fine. Or they could have just avoided printing a dozen cheap hard counters at the same time (although there's already 8 this season).

Last season was all midrange control or tempo, with the only dedicated control deck having to reach into 5 colors to be competitive.

This season it's just midrange. Without control, aggro loses it's natural victim and you're left with a whole lot of midrange vs midrange matches that are basically won off the dice roll. There's fast midrange and slow midrange, and that's about it, excluding a few aggro decks that hope to get lucky and face slow midrange all day.

I enjoyed learning about control. You go through that phase where you learn about card advantage and build yourself a cool midrange deck with good beats and some neat card advantage tricks (mine was rebels), you get dominated by a control deck and learn more about the game, get more interested in all those cards that don't swing for 2.

I honestly think they got rid of counterspell because it's difficult to print cards that help against drawgo when it gets too strong.

It doesn't function well without decent draw power anyway, and let's face it, all the sorcery speed options don't synergize well. Plus bituminous blast is no prophetic bolt that's for sure.
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MotC



Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanik wrote:
I can't recall a standard tier 1 drawgo since invasion block rotated out.



Well MUC was decent durring Mirodon CHK/ONS(I forget which one) And then there was also Dralnu from I think Rav/TSP.
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanik wrote:
I can't recall a standard tier 1 drawgo since invasion block rotated out.


Psychatog control saw play well after fact or fiction rotated out.

Later on the only control decks were astral slide based or mirrari's wake/wish based. Then I quit. Dunno what happened after that.

Frankly, fairies was the best type of control deck I've ever seen. It was aggro that finishes games fast and doesn't let your opponent do anything. Reminds me of Masque's block or w/e with gush and the force spike creatures.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SJM wrote:
Thanik wrote:
I can't recall a standard tier 1 drawgo since invasion block rotated out.


Psychatog control saw play well after fact or fiction rotated out.


There you go, thankyou for the correction Smile

Faeries was very reminiscent of crosis/nosis and accelerated blue in some ways. I had never thought about using 'tempo' counters like spellstutter to ramp into more expensive hard counters like cryptic command. It was a fair way from a true permission deck though. Those instant 4/4 flying timewalks put the opponent on a pretty short clock so it didn't need to be.
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