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Blue counterspells are too cheap.


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PakTu



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Blue counterspells are too cheap. Reply with quote

Whenever I try playing a beastly creature all I ever see is blue flying out of nowhere to stop me. From Force Spike to Force of Will, even stifle stops me. I wish they would stop making so many good blue counter spells.
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HujuVanikil



Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stop making so many good creatures that we have to counter or lose the game to.
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PakTu



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about good creatures, there aren't as many good creatures as there are Great Counterspells. I'm just waiting till they make a green counterspell, or even a red counterspell that counters blue counterspells. Maybe they could call it waterblast.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously a troll but for the 1% chance you aren't joking Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, and Gutteral Response all exist.
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol
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Mr_Eko



Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is a WTF post.....
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Spyx



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1188

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A black control deck can beat a blue one in eternal.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister_karas wrote:
I think the complaint is agaist a good control deck, if you dont land a creature in the first 3 turns, generaly, you lose.

Since for 2 mana they can stop just about anything you try to play, then for another 2 mana they can procede to refill their hand.

I agree that blue control is too strong, in the eternal formats atleast, as its impossible to beat a blue control deck with a non blue control deck in legacy or vintage

Can't speak on Vintage, but in Legacy the days of traditional blue control are gone. Unless of course you share the name of this card that refills your hand for 2 mana. Draw/Go is done though, you have to either 1: Lay threats and go Aggro/Control 2: Lay down permanents that control the game or 3: Splash 2-3 other colors to get removal. Counterspells alone don't win games like they used to. Tarmogoyf on the board doesn't care how many Counterspells are in your hand and the game ends in 4-6 turns. The only Counterspells that change Legacy worth noting are Daze, which only works if you have a small mana curve, Force of Will because it's awesome, Counterbalance but you have to build the deck around it, and Spell Snare because Legacy is the 2 CMC format. The only Counterspell on that list worth complaining about is Counterbalance because it's as close to old school counterspell lockdown as anyone can get now adays and it warps the whole format. If Force of Will didn't exist Legacy/Vintage would be so fast it would turn into a dice roll.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wahhhhhh, players like this need to stop complaining about blue so we can get Wizards to start printing good counterspells and draw spells in standard again. Seriously, you don't have to play this game if there are aspects of it that you don't like.

I hate playing against aggro decks; all you do is play the best creature you can with the mana available and swing.
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Landstill is kinda pulling to the background in Legacy. And for the record, something like Goblins, Zoo, Eva Green or Aggro Loam can beat blue decks just fine without a single blue card in their 75. Hell, I've even heard rumors of Death & Taxes being a good deck. Hell, mono-green Survival with Natural Order works and definitely counts as a bomb-deck in the spirit of Wakefield himself.

Of course you can't play random shit that just drops some 6- and 7-drops while ramping up mana. But you can play e.g. Natural Order-decks just fine. It's just that in a powerful format, the qualifications for what's viable are pretty high.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister_karas wrote:

Not compleatly true, because in the end landstill plays like a draw/go deck. And just because I say blue control, what makes you think Im talking about a mono blue deck? What I was saying is that there is no other colour or combination of colours where you can deal with anything for 2 mana (or less if you want to get into it)

Landstill isn't even as close to as good as you make it sound. I mean it's an okay deck but out of five tournaments it might top 8 twice. Very far from overpowered or the best deck in the format.
Mister_karas wrote:

Again, show me a removal spell that can hit any non land perminant for -1 card advantage and 0 mana, its something wizards will never print, because they knew it was too powerful even in alpha, but for some reason counter spell wasn't, even though for 2 mana you basicly get the removal spell for every non land perminant, and instant/sorcery ever printed unless they are rediculessly costed (quagnoth/obliterate), or generaly useless in eternal formats (volcanic fallout).

Force of Will isn't 1/2 as good as this imaginary card would be, once a card is on the table FoW doesn't effect it. Yeah it's one of the best cards in Legacy, but if it didn't exist nothing could stop combo and we'd all be complaining about that instead.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play T2 or extended if you want to avoid Spikes and Forces.

BTW, imo Rune Snag is better than Mana Leak.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune Snag was waaaaay better than Mana Leak. In the mirror, it was literally a hard counter for 1U due to your opponents loading up their graveyard on Rune Snags themselves.
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10/10

well done, good sir.
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only one creature, eh? The only reason to the narrow range of creatures being played in Eternal IS the very Tarmogoyf... Still, Tombstalker, Narcomoeba, Sower of Temptation, Doran, Rhox War Monk, Dark Confidant, Stingscourger, Goblin Chieftain, Merrow Reejerey, Elvish Archdruid, Kitchen Finks, Wild Nacatl, Qasali Pride-Mage Knight of Reliquary, Countryside Crusher...that's off the top of my head a bunch of creatures played by very common Legacy-decks. Guess what? They're all recent.

Basically all creatures played nowadays are recent with very few exceptions (mostly tribal guys, and more specialized deck creatures like Sea Drake & Serendib Efreet). And Vintage has its Gaddock Teegs, Inkwell Leviathans, Vexing Shushers, etc. seeing large amounts of play. Try that with older creatures.


As for new counters; which Eternal playables have been printed since Ravnica? I can think of...Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. Rune Snag is a fringe playable, but hardly better than Mana Leak and the rest are just trash.

Like, Pact of Negation has some uses and Cryptic Command & Mindbreak Trap may see some play, but that's about it, and they don't see play because of their powerlevel, but serving specialized roles some decks may need filled.


If you claim counters have been somehow dominant and creatures have been bad recently, you're on some stuff and I want some too. And if you don't want your precious creatures countered, play tricks to slip past counters. Honestly, it's no more complex than that.
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