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Shuffling


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks
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kaamos



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 320

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwarfas wrote:
If you are one of those people who have sideboards that look like 4 this 4 that 4 this 3 that. then yeah top 8 is hard for you. or it might be the cause of why you never win a top 8.


You gotta admit when only the first of the block is out there isnt enough powercards to build many tier 1 decks, and you cannot blame one for trying to innovate instead of playing some variant of another persons deck.

The Regionals is the first tournament where real decks are made for the format- not that you were indicating so, but if you are critiquing decks now you really should wait until then* imo

You are entirely right about dealing with cheaters and the spirit of the game- but cheating against other players outside of the top 8 is unethical, and so is cheating "white people" specifically. Hitting top 8 without cheating is hard when you dont know how to watch for cheaters, and when you dont cheat yourself (and ofc make and play an effective deck)

Please dont troll, you could be anybody with no real experience, nobody cares what you have done, you could be from a low population state full of dust with no people to compete with.
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone does this (I don't).

That's why I shuffle the hell out of your deck at a tournament, because I know you do this.

I also look through the deck (from the back) to see if every 3rd or so card is turned around. If so, in any tournament above FNM REL 8, I am calling a judge and if all of your land is turned around, you'll be lucky if all you get is a match loss.

This is the oldest method of cheating in Magic. Obvious to everyone.

Do it in a tournament and get DQ'd.
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Nix06



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one oke Allan Wen got Suspended for a year (I think), he stacked his Fires of Yavimaya Deck at the South-African nationals.
Something like
T1:Birds
T2:Fires
T3:Kavu or whatever
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stacking the deck is easy to overcome by thoroughly shuffling your opponent's deck after they present it to you, which is your right.

Other common forms of cheating include:

1. Tapping mana then untapping it successively such that eventually you untap a land that should be tapped because it was already used for a spell. This gives you an extra mana and sometimes wins the game.

2. Anywhere that a deck list isn't used, cheating is rampant. To include: Friday Night Magic drafts and pre-release tournaments. There is no deck list so you can literally go out to your car and swap in 3 or 5 cards, or even an entire draft deck. This is why I don't do FNM drafts anymore. I only do constructed.

3. The more brazen forms of cheating like having a card in your lap or swapping cards from the side to main during a game. This is easy to prevent IF you know what you're looking for and always keep an up to date count on your opponent's cards in hand. However, the card in the lap trick can be tough to catch because they simply take a land from their hand and replace it with the "lap card."

In all honesty, Magic is a game rife with cheaters. You have a combination of low self esteem nerds, uber competitive alpha nerds, and, for lack of a better word, "shysters", in this game. You will be cheated and taken advantage of if you do not protect yourself. That is one reason I quit the game so many years ago, cheating is simply rampant.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you are one of those people who have sideboards that look like 4 this 4 that 4 this 3 that. then yeah top 8 is hard for you. or it might be the cause of why you never win a top 8.

what the balls?

Quote:
you could be anybody with no real experience, nobody cares what you have done

qft
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dv8r



Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nobody who is any good at mtg needs to tell people that they are good at the game, people will just know, hence you can just ignore dwarfas

4 things I can recommend about dealing with cheaters:
1) act confident going into a game. not arrogant, confident. someone is far less likely to try to cheat you if they think that there is a chance that you're not going to let them get away with it.

2) know your rights. this doesn't mean learn every page of the comprehensive rulebooks (*yawn*) but be aware that you can and should call a judge on anything that goes wrong (including on yourself) and don't try to use your opponents cheating to your advantage.

3) assume the worst. some mtg players are scumbags. fact. the vast majority are not. unfortuneately you don't know which you opponent is before he sits down to play you. if you assume your opponent is trying to cheat you before you play, then you can't get caught out, pleasantries are for between and after games (or low level tournaments such as FNMs and pre-releases).

4) have fun. sure, someone might try to cheat you, heck they might succeed. but consider whether, at the end of the day this really even matters. VERY worst case scenario, you lose a round, miss top 8 and don't win your ptq. so what? magic is just a hobby, you're not going to make money playing it at the end of the day, and if you truly deserved to be at that pro tour anyway, you'll be able to win next week. people who cheat typically have to do so to make up for their lack of playing ability (except for those really bad ones who have a psychological need to feel superior to others, but we'll leave those to one side for now), if they want to win enough to resort to cheating, let them, but don't make it easy for them to get away with it. if you let it bother you too much, you'll stop having fun playing this game, and then, what's the point?
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rentintin3



Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dwarfas is a slow kidd.... I also would like to play some online with you? I mean poker btw. I play all major sites. um... yeah Bleak Future screen name. you can opr me if you want whatev.
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dwarfas



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

magic started to die in honolulu. 2001-2002 was the biggest. you'd have 200-250 people only. The bigger events being pre-releases at 350+ That's not much.

But yes seeding your deck is cheating. I am a moral absolutist I do onto others as they would do onto me. Why should cheating be an exception?

I can tell the judge he's seeding his deck... but if he wins the score says 1-0. Imagine that. Would you rather I pull out a gun and make him admit what is he doing is cheating? I don't have to do that. I can just play the game and win.

Don't try to deny the haole man's sins either.

Don't act like a cheater didn't make it to the top either. There's more then a few Mike Long.

So what if I advocate to watch for cheaters and simply cheat them? You got a better way to stop a Mike Long? Judge system doesn't always work. Neither does our justice system. If you're going to be a victim; I suggest you take matters into your own hands. It's better that way.


~
One thing about online poker.

With lots of sights out there keeping tabs on your performance telling what types of players people are. I find it extremely difficult on some of my handles. My game also depends on my mood sometimes. I sometimes am a gambler's gambler and take 50/50 chances that I maybe shouldn't otherwise take while other times I'll think about surviving.

If I am going to play tight I'll dump $10 bucks on 10 cent tournaments. just shoving all my chips around. Then I'll play a $360 tournament. People will check the site and see "oh this guys is a donkey... I'll call"

If you want to be aggressive. fold every hand on 10 cent tournaments and only play top hands and call but do little raising. "oh this guy is tight and raising into me... I'll fold."

Some sites now a days tell you what tournaments you played in. If it all says $0.10 tournaments some people can figure out not to believe the site.

Well either way it's a good way to conceal your playing style.
~

You choose to be honest and you choose to lose. Now some people are lucky they get paired with people that don't cheat. win those matches get from the bottom to the top just playing the game. I don't know how often that happens.

How often do people get caught cheating? not often. Not often at all. Yet seeding is so popular. Does that make any sense? no. It doesn't.
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really depends on what your objective is in the game.

My objective is to have fun and enjoy the game for what it is - preferably in a fair manner.

If you take this as absolutely serious business where it's kill or be killed, be my guest.

I prefer to use that mentality towards real life when it comes to making money. With my hobbies, I strive for fairness which is the basis of all games - the level playing field.

People often wish their opponent "luck" before a game, I never do. I say, "I hope we have a fair game." I mean it.

Just because there are scum bag cheaters out there doesn't mean you have to be a scum bag cheater. Just because there are muggers out there doesn't mean you need to carry a gun and mug everyone on the street. Just because there are rapists out there doesn't mean you need to start home invading people and raping them.

Two wrongs don't make a right and you are using a jaded world view to justify immoral acts on your part. This is the sign of an intellectually immature person.
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rentintin3



Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Dwarfas what your saying is you aren't going to play me for any real money? If not thats ok. I only told you my Screename and told you to opr me or whateve to know I'm legit so like 1/2 through 5/10 is ok for me depending on your roll...
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kaamos



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 320

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honesty is Amnesty of the soul.
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rentintin3



Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wut? Just say don't do drugs!!!!

And yes karma is a bitch
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing online poker does not automatically make you an expert on cheating in magic, much less an expert on any other subject.
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too many drop out, slacker, lazy, pot head wanna-be "pro-poker players" in the MTG community.

Get a job. Tired of you kids working minimum wage while sitting around sharing a house with 5 other losers dreaming of winning millions like that cheater Dave Williams.

You shoulda stayed in college and you wouldn't have to "earn" your living by playing poker on the internets, taking money from old men on pensions that made more money, and contributed more to society than you ever will.
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dwarfas



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rentintin3

are you asking me for a heads up? Or are you asking me to enter the same World Poker Series event as you? or the same 45 player $360 event?

Poker is a hobby. It's not for money. It's for fun. Going to Vegas and playing in the WPT is fun. You get to meet celebrities maybe even get an autograph.

Is there something wrong with that? I prefer that to magic cards. Magic cards is more or less for young adults.

~

you guys have me mistaken. I don't advocate cheating or murder outrightly. I am just saying it's better to return the favor then to be victimized.

~
see that's what you don't understand. If I got paired up with mike long in his cheating days... I can't say for certain I'd catch him. He's pretty slick he cheated in front of a lot of people watching and no one saw it.

I suspect someone when they put their hands where I can't see them, where long sleeves, put their cards in odd places, or in a pile close to the edge of their side of the table.

There's different ways people like to go about cheating. Shuffling their decks certain ways.

I always shuffle my opponents deck out of habit, because I don't trust people I don't know. Especially haoles; they play off human nature. Indians should've murdered them all. Hawaiians should've murdered them when they showed up to Hawaii. Hindsight is always 20/20, but you can learn from that. Don't trust haoles is pretty simple really.

The secretary of treasury Henry Paulson in 2008 went on TV said hey I am going to steal billions from tax payers and convinced congress to okay it. The former CEO of Goldman Sachs had a real conflict of interest I'd say. The white man cheats all the time. Right in front of your eyes.

You know there's alot of people out there I hope I never meet for their sakes.

But you know what? go ahead and just blame gangsta rap for all your problems. Just keep on doing that. Been doing it for 20 years now it must still be the problem.

While people dieing in Katrina the politicians shake hands and congratulate each other. Business as usual. Death and taxes.

Bank cheats people out of houses puts them on the streets. Ain't me. Ain't my problem. Then beggers coming up to me asking for my grip. Shit has been going on for ages, but when it happens to white people everybody want to care now. oh stop sub prime mortgage fraud. They been doing it to projects since the 80s. getting black folks out of their homes. Now I am supposed to set aside my differences and help middle class white folks out. It didn't apply to them till now. The funny thing is they still buy into the propaganda the political hacks feed them.

I am just saying. You don't got a be a victim. Sure there are legitimate reasons for the contract with the hidden balloon payments to be void. Contracts need consent, but not having important information means your consent is tainted. Ah you need a lawyer to prove that, but someone who lost their home probably can't afford a lawyer. Awesome scam ain't it? All you can really do is do what they all do end up on the streets or livin in a van. working paycheck to paycheck till they get enough money together live in a mobile home or apartment and pick up where you left off.

Now I am rambling.

Here's the point. If you are being cheated or swindled it's probably best to do something about it.

You got to stand up for yourself. Don't got to join the damn Army to learn that shit.
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