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Shuffling


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Shuffling Reply with quote

Recently, I showed a couple of my IRL friends how to shuffle their deck so the land is spread out (for example: put a land every third card). So I tried to shuffle their decks so I put every 3rd card on the bottom of their library. Is there any rules to how you can shuffle your opponents library in tournaments?
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Ludz
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. You can't put every 3rd card land, that's cheating. You have to shuffle in a way so that the library is in a random order.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can stack the whole deck whatever way you want, as long as you shuffle it properly afterwards.

Stacking the deck, then shuffling is not cheating as long as it can't be proved/argued that your deck is _evenly distributed_ and hence not randomized.
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Mitchmachine



Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyway, thats your opponents job.
since he has the last cut to the deck
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SniperMayer



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3.8 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized using some form of riffle and/or mash shuffle at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.
Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.
If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is considered ordered and must be shuffled again.
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kaamos



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 320

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people call placing every 3rd card as a land "seeding the deck" which even after being shuffled really gives you some chance of drawing your lands, and at large tournaments I made it a point to do it between matches, but if you go the distance you should forget about it since people will notice.

You really cant make mistakes rules wise, because good players WILL call you out on it and disqualify you for it, even questions, so know what you are doing before you plan to do it, or dont do it.
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some people call placing every 3rd card as a land "seeding the deck" which even after being shuffled really gives you some chance of drawing your lands,....


If stacking follows shuffling, but the deck is still stacked somehow, then you didnt shuffle enough.
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Fridolin



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Countermeasures Reply with quote

Watch out for pile shufflers who don't use a different shuffling method in between. Two pile shuffles plus cutting is just a clever means of stacking a deck, IF your opponent is really trying to cheat.

If you are quite certain your opponent tried to cheat by stacking his deck, call a judge immediately. Judges know how to figure out whether your opponent try to cheat. Otherwise pile shuffle your opponents deck with three piles. Two quick rifle shuffles are not enough to shuffle a perfectly stacked deck.

Unless you are playing a really slow control deck, chances are pretty low that you will lose the match because of shuffling your opponents deck, so do it at least at the start of the match. Game two and three and during those games your opponent will not have the opportunity to stack his deck, so cutting is enough.
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dwarfas



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what I like to do is 1 2 or 1 2 3 an opponent's deck. It works really well. Always scout during tournaments after a match up. watch for stackers or seeders. And mentally note what they are playing. (for example you don't want to do a 1 2 3 against someone with a 28 land deck that does a 1 2).
1 2 a deck is like this.
A B Piles
1 2 Cards
1 2
1 2

ABC
123
123
123
123

So if your opponent put land in every third card. well after a 123 his deck has a stack of land.

People often seed their decks so this is my method of screwing those particular people over.

It's also one of the reasons I always top 8 when I decide to play.

Also when you do this to an opponent you can sometimes if you are slick enough peek at a card if you have no clue what your opponent is playing.

Also people tend to behave a certain way consistently. they'll tap their opponents deck or cut in the middle. or they always do some form of shuffling.

Shuffling your opponent's deck always is a good behavior because it becomes more complicated to stack my deck against them. I have to take into consideration how he shuffles. Usually I can only setup my deck to get 3 lands and 1 card i want against a shuffler. but people who have fancy ways of doing things i can only manage to setup my mana base.
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dwarfas



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is alot more depth to cheating then this and counter cheating.

against kids and people that don't pay attention you can often just pull a card out from somewhere and they won't notice.
~
this goes contrary to the spirit of gaming. ******
I cheated a lot when I was younger playing this game. Now I don't play anymore in real life. I rather go to a casino and play texas hold em where I don't have to shuffle or deal. The game is much more dynamic and interesting.

Part of the fun in magic is building a deck... so you get attached to it naturally since it is your creation. That makes playing live fun. The deck is a part of you in a sense. I hate losing to douchebags or pricks or cheaters etc.

So that's why cheating is pretty regular in magic. Especially if you are playing against something really gay.

It's also kind of hard to prove cheating. Like if I slipped a card in from my SB and slipped a card out from my MD and it's game 2 or 3... it's really hard to tell.

the top card of my sb is something I want to swap in. and usually I swap out a land while my opponent doesn't notice.

but like during top 8 you get a lot of spectators and judges get interested and want to watch games.

So what I like to do is make a deck that will beat what I think will make top 8 and totally ignore everything else. I'll just cheat those people.

Turn 1 bloodmoon wtf? Oh wow I drew a plain and a forest. how lucky is that?

(edited by Moderator: No racism please)


Last edited by dwarfas on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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TehDudeAbide



Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwarfas wrote:
what I like to do is 1 2 or 1 2 3 an opponent's deck. It works really well. Always scout during tournaments after a match up. watch for stackers or seeders. And mentally note what they are playing. (for example you don't want to do a 1 2 3 against someone with a 28 land deck that does a 1 2).
1 2 a deck is like this.
A B Piles
1 2 Cards
1 2
1 2

ABC
123
123
123
123

So if your opponent put land in every third card. well after a 123 his deck has a stack of land.

People often seed their decks so this is my method of screwing those particular people over.

It's also one of the reasons I always top 8 when I decide to play.

Also when you do this to an opponent you can sometimes if you are slick enough peek at a card if you have no clue what your opponent is playing.

Also people tend to behave a certain way consistently. they'll tap their opponents deck or cut in the middle. or they always do some form of shuffling.

Shuffling your opponent's deck always is a good behavior because it becomes more complicated to stack my deck against them. I have to take into consideration how he shuffles. Usually I can only setup my deck to get 3 lands and 1 card i want against a shuffler. but people who have fancy ways of doing things i can only manage to setup my mana base.


You deserve 2 claps for winning without skills, and 2 punches to the nuts for winning without skills.
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dwarfas



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You deserve 2 claps for winning without skills, and 2 punches to the nuts for winning without skills.


That's your opinion. As far as I am concerned if someone is going to cheat me when I actually do not feel like cheating. I'm going to take measures to counter them.

If I know how my opponent sets up his deck it's not cheating to set his up to fail.

It in fact takes skill contrary to what you say or believe. It's math and paying attention.
~
if his deck was truly randomized then any efforts I take to shuffle my opponent's deck would be in vein.
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dwarfas



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How am I racist? and yes I did always top 8 between 2000-2003.

Always made prizes in pre-releases as well. was in the top 10 constructed rating in my state. Then I quit playing.

Now I play for fun. learning the rules all over again; much has changed and much has not.

I even played hold em, omaha, 7 card stud etc etc.
~
you act like hitting top 8 is hard. When winning top 8 is hard.

If you are one of those people who have sideboards that look like 4 this 4 that 4 this 3 that. then yeah top 8 is hard for you. or it might be the cause of why you never win a top 8.
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synergy



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woah... top 10 in state. u must be legendary. i have a rating higher than that.... but how u can say u top 8d EVERY tourney for 3 years is incredible. thats like impossible almost. unless u just do FNMs. and pre releases are casual and not hard to do well in.
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blamin8or



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the way most players pile shuffle is an illegal form of shuffling since they simply make 4-7 piles and distribute cards in straight lines. this way there is only 1 place that any card can end up when the deck is presented and its not random because there has to be an equal chance of cards ending up anywhere in the deck. Whenever i pile shuffle like this IRL i always make sure and smash all my piles together before i pick them up. This 12, 123 method is almost definitely illegal. I mean i understand the idea of trying to cheat the cheaters but can't we just play the game by the rules and let the judges take care of the people who don't?
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