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Why is noone talking about that?


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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the whole he's justified as he did it for the money thing I just want to elaborate the point, a little. By the same logic a prostitue or bank robber are also fine. Does a bank robber justifying himself to the judge as he did it for the money, get himself a pardon. Yeah sure Okay you robbed the bank for the money in that cases Id ive done the same so we will let you off.

However I still think its a warning as it is basically impossible to prove intent. If 4 table judges missed it, why would we expect Kibler to be any different.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think judgements should always favour the player that didn't fuck up using his own card. The whole "have to remind" thing is a joke ruling anyways. Like, I understand the intent, but top level magic should hardly have to adhere to rules meant to help new players who have no fucking idea what they're doing.

The whole "don't let your opponent fuck up" rule was meant to stop assholes from ripping off wins from "Timmy the Noob FNM Player", not from saving nervous players in a PT top 8. This whole fucking argument of Kibler being in the wrong is a fucking joke.

Kibler kept his cool under IMMENSE pressure to succeed after Hawaii, and even came back from being down 0-2. That's skill and experience, the definition of a pro and he deserved to win.


Not like PV who choked under the pressure (yet again). Very Happy
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronjeremyjr wrote:
Quote:
Stacking mana is Cheating. Even if you dont know it is. Stalling, too. Not telling about mandatory triggers, too.


Stacking mana is cheating because you're doing it intentionally. Stalling is also cheating because you're doing it intentionally. If you're not intentionally playing slowly then it's a slow play infraction. Again it goes back to intent. It's hard to argue that someone didn't intentionally stack their deck with mana. Intent in the PG doesn't say they have to be aware they're breaking a rules, they just need to be doing what they're doing on purpose.

An example: Player A misses a mandatory trigger and they call a judge. Player B says "yeah, he's been missing those all match." It doesn't matter if player B didn't know it was wrong not to tell him, player B broke the rules intentionally. Ignorance of the existence of the rules is no excuse. In that situation Player B would get a DQ. On the other hand if player B hadn't been aware the trigger was there then you can't DQ player B because they didn't intentionally break rules.


Another example to show how easy it is to show up.
Timmy at the Pre-release flight #10 is looking at his cool collection of cards because now he's gotten 12 packs today! Man that Dragon that he didn't get to play earlier would be ferocious in his all-red deck. I see him looking through his binder + his pool and making a switch. "hey Timmy, whatcha got there... I have some bad news. You're not allowed to use cards from earlier today- you can only use the cards you opened in THIS pool. I noticed you made a chance which means it's unfair for the other guys- right? I have to Disqualify you from this event but lsiten- if you go talk to that guy (TO) I've already worked it out and you get to go play another event. And you can keep these cards for free bud! But don't use them in the next one kay?

He doesn't know he's breaking the rules but it's definitely cheating. There is a penalty that fits the offense- and luckily an easy remedy from a really cool TO. If I'm talking to Kibler- 'Do you know what Angel of Despair does? Why didn't you remind him to target something?'
If i found ANY quiver in his response that wasn't "i thought it was a may trigger" then I would disqualify him. Papa gets Warning- Missed Trigger. Kibler gets Warning- Failure to Maintain. That's said and done. BK gets one short interview to convince me that he wasn't manipulating the rules to gain an advantage that wasn't there to be had.

On one hand I dislike HAVING the remind my opponent of his triggers; that Springjack Knight needs to declare its target when it attacks, etc. But the rule is there so that player A cannot manipulate his rules knowledge to gain an advantage. Superior knowledge is supposed to help you win games (you can let your opponent pay 6R for fireball and say he wants to deal 3 to Hill giant and 2 to GrizzlyBear. When it resolves it'll deal 2 to each.) (you can pay UUU for merfolk sovereign when stonybrook banneret is in play and when the ForceSpike it you pay the 1 mana.) The reason a rule like that is in place though is so that you are forced to uphold the integrity of the game. There is a DESIGNED difference between mandatory and May triggers. They are meant to be part of the game. The rule also stops you from investigating for cheats. If they didn't kill a permanent with AoD then maybe they won't notice that Shriekmaw couldn't kill her. Maybe they won't notice that you paid a Dredge6 cost with 5 cards in library... it goes on and on.

They both would get Warnings and Kibler would get a short investigation where a single quiver deviating from 'i didn't know it wasn't may' gets him a DQ. That's my stance
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Souljah62489 wrote:
Sorry but if you're bad enough to miss triggers and expect your opponent to remind you, you deserve to lose. Period. That has nothing to do with cheating and everything to do with your opponent just being bad and missing a trigger, that's your opponent's responsibility to know what his cards do, not yours.


you're JUST wrong. nothing else... but wrong.


anyone who thinks this is not playing Magic- they're playing some other game with MTG cards- not Magic. I've played basketball with a soccer ball. I've played a game like Checkers where you didn't need to jump. These are similar situations to playing an Angel of Despair that doesn't have a target.

Dessert has little to do with rules... more with morals. I would actually argue that THE GREEK 'deserved' to lose because he got cocky and thought Progenitus was GG, and forgoed the Angel play. I would actually BET on it. He can deserve to lose for that.



PS- I won that "checkers' game 12-0. He didn't take a single piece.
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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering there where 2 judges watching over the situation, and announcers watching... Why are they not accountable in this situation? Why should Kibler be DQed when his opponent also didn't notice the missed trigger. Wouldn't both players receive warnings at worse. Maybe kibler thought the tigger was a may. There is no proof kibler knew it was a must.

He did have the Baneslayer in hand(i was there and heard it discussed by the man himself)... and he knew that all the triggers happen after hypergenies resolves. Does not mean he knew that it is a must. A judge was within 2 feet. What the hell is there job? it is funny because if a judge had acted appropriately... the pro tour would of ended quite differently.
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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