Why is noone talking about that?

coolcreep · Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 560

If the judge watching the match missed it, it is really hard to argue that kibler did something intentionally.

CMA-Flippi · Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject:

Welran · Joined: 08 Apr 2005 Posts: 54

yeah that's very good way to win - play angel then "forget" to destroy something then win by DQing opponent Smile

dv8r · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 215

just want to say that I think you are all despicable for being willing to cheat your way to 40k. I would have reminded my opponent in that situation without a second thought. do I remind my opponent about soul warden triggers even if they forget, sure, I'm also happy to call a judge if it happens too often and get them the appropriate punishments so they won't forget in the future.

second, kibler cheated. that's clear. can we do anything about, or more specifically, SHOULD we do anything about it? probably not. the tournament is over, and giving him a punishment after the event is ridiculous. it's a damning indictment of the way the pro tour is run, the event commentators, and the judges at the table at the event, and I'm amost certain not to trust kibler if we ever play at a major event, but it's far too late to do anything about it. I just think it's a shame that it came to this.

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 400

some readers/poster on this subject are not paying attention to the difference between CHEATING that deserves a DQ versus Breaking-the-Rules that deserves a Warning. Maybe this can help guide future posts:

Both players broke the rules- they should get Warnings. Maybe Kibler intentionally skipped on his obligation to 'find' that trigger. That would be cheating...

Superior rules knowledge is supposed to be an advantage in magic, but finding an advantage that is not within the rules is serious misconduct.

Do you think his bypass was intentional or a miss? (note: Kibler is the lead developer for WoW TCG- where almost all triggers are 'may.')

Do you think Papa deserved to lose? (this one has been popular... if he deserves to lsoe for missing angel trigger then SO DOES KIBLER. DUH!)

If you consider Kibler guilty- how do you approach the situation? (i personally would watch like a hawk and anything amiss would get called.) Remember that passed tournaments cannot affect judgement on a player.

Thanks to CMA also- burden of proof is not necessary to DQ. If the relevant ruling party thinks you are guilty- you are guilty. Head Judges can make islands produce green mana if they want. Their judging career will probably not extend past that event, but they could do it. I've had my 4/4 Figure turned into a 1/1 because it's what the HJ thought it was.

Trotsky1 · Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 1666

On the whole he's justified as he did it for the money thing I just want to elaborate the point, a little. By the same logic a prostitue or bank robber are also fine. Does a bank robber justifying himself to the judge as he did it for the money, get himself a pardon. Yeah sure Okay you robbed the bank for the money in that cases Id ive done the same so we will let you off.

However I still think its a warning as it is basically impossible to prove intent. If 4 table judges missed it, why would we expect Kibler to be any different.

ronjeremyjr · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 67

Jacois · Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 721

I think judgements should always favour the player that didn't fuck up using his own card. The whole "have to remind" thing is a joke ruling anyways. Like, I understand the intent, but top level magic should hardly have to adhere to rules meant to help new players who have no fucking idea what they're doing.

The whole "don't let your opponent fuck up" rule was meant to stop assholes from ripping off wins from "Timmy the Noob FNM Player", not from saving nervous players in a PT top 8. This whole fucking argument of Kibler being in the wrong is a fucking joke.

Kibler kept his cool under IMMENSE pressure to succeed after Hawaii, and even came back from being down 0-2. That's skill and experience, the definition of a pro and he deserved to win.

Not like PV who choked under the pressure (yet again). Very Happy

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 400

Souljah62489 · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 9

Sorry but if you're bad enough to miss triggers and expect your opponent to remind you, you deserve to lose. Period. That has nothing to do with cheating and everything to do with your opponent just being bad and missing a trigger, that's your opponent's responsibility to know what his cards do, not yours.

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 400

Hank333 · Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 305 Location: San Antoni

Considering there where 2 judges watching over the situation, and announcers watching... Why are they not accountable in this situation? Why should Kibler be DQed when his opponent also didn't notice the missed trigger. Wouldn't both players receive warnings at worse. Maybe kibler thought the tigger was a may. There is no proof kibler knew it was a must.

He did have the Baneslayer in hand(i was there and heard it discussed by the man himself)... and he knew that all the triggers happen after hypergenies resolves. Does not mean he knew that it is a must. A judge was within 2 feet. What the hell is there job? it is funny because if a judge had acted appropriately... the pro tour would of ended quite differently.

ukkertind · Joined: 07 Aug 2005 Posts: 2

Quoted from the updated DCI penalty guide 2008(i did the bolded text though):

"Cheating — Fraud
Definition
A person intentionally violates the Player Communication policy or intentionally misrepresents procedures, personal information or any other relevant tournament information in an attempt to gain advantage. Note that Fraud, like most cheating, is determined by an investigation and will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error."

Another quote from that section:
"For example, a player targeting a black creature with Terror has not committed Fraud if they forgot that Terror can not target black creatures, even though the action (playing Terror) was intentional and illegal. It is Fraud if a judge believes they were aware and hoping that their opponent would miss it."

So as I see it Kibler (as well as as his opponent) obviously violated the rules by missing the trigger. And at that level of play both should be given a warning for that.
Kibler even knew about the trigger, but can it be proven he knew that the trigger was mandatory? Because only then he would have comitted fraud, because only then he would have hoped for his opponent to miss obeying a rule as opposed to just miss using a "may-trigger".

Look at it this way: Maybe Kibler wasnt sure if the trigger was mandatory, after all he didnt even play magic (at least not competetively as far as i know) at the time Angel of Despair was in standard, and he might not have followed everything that was goin on in magic the past years. Maybe he thought they could have made it a "may-trigger" for some reason.
But what should he do in that situation? Ask if it actually is mandatory?

The fact which takes almost all blame off Kibler is for me that there were 2 judges watching everything and they didnt say anything.
That must have convinced Kibler that the trigger wasnt mandatory, because thats how the judges would act in that situation: dont help anyone to remember his "may-trigger".

I agree though that the rules are a bit shady there and I am not one-hundred percent sure, but at the moment Id really put my money on Kibler not having cheated (by the rules).

Also I think its time to stop bashing Kibler and start giving it to the judges there Razz

After all they really screwed up while not playing for some 10000 bucks Razz

nico · League Staff Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 918

Conkisstador: where did you c/p that piece of text from? I seem to remember a judge telling just that on another board.
And for the record: I totally agree in the way that quoted situation was dealt with.

Greetz Nico

Alpha_Donkey · Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 28

Never read all this thread, its too stupid, so if i am repeating exact words of someone else then i apologize (given the topic and length of thread I'm sure I am).

A. Judge didn't see it, and or, didn't care enough to mention. That is significant, blame should be put there first.

B. If the dude did that well in the pro tour, he sure has hell should be good enough not to miss a come into play trigger, particularly one on a card that he would be playing FOR the come into play trigger.

C. Changing the results will not make me any richer or any more famous a magic player, so I could care less.