Why is noone talking about that?

IkeReilly · Joined: 11 Dec 2007 Posts: 36

you guys need to reread the coverage, he had three lands and two freshly played hierarchs, opp plays hyper. Assuming kibler has baneslayer in hand, he plays three meddling mages first while the opp only had two plays, so he would be in no danger laying a late baneslayer. It is more likely he drew it off the top and played it with the two hierarchs for white.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 624

And thats where your wrong and why not playing Baneslayer actually was a good play, he didnt played it because the triggers go on the stack AFTER hypergensis resolves. And speaking of coverage you should watch/listen to the finals where they mention that he already had it on hand and didnt play it because of Angel of Despair and then it didnt kill something. (pre Finals). And he actually just had 2 lands in play because if he had 3(before hypergensis) he could cast the meddling mages that where in his hand since he played the second with the second land and attacked for two(the turn before hypergenisis resolved.

Shooter · Joined: 11 Mar 2005 Posts: 130

he had forest,hierarchx2 and burnwillows. then he drew temple garden

Trotsky1 · Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 1671

I Think the thing is you can still not prove it is cheating though it almost ceratinly is.

It is entirely possible for Kibbler to hold back the baneslayer because of despair, his opponent plays it and then gives no indication of a permanent to destroy and as kibbler has switched off now to, he also fails to realise his opponet has not targeted something with the despair. Its not all that likely but it is possible and why I still think they both should have got a warning.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 624

I just read that he actually said in an interview after the Pro Tour:

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 401

a few things you need to know:

hypergenesis upon reoslving passes back and forth from it's caster to opponents and back. once the hypergenesis player drops nothing and neither does Kibler, the spell is done resolving. it is not like calling/checking in poker- Kibler has every advantage in that he can wait for the Greek to stop dropping before playing his bits.

Triggers from Hypergenesis: they are WAITING to go on the stack until the board tells them they need targets. this only happens once hypergenesis is RESOLVED and in the graveyard. active player chooses targets for his triggers, then non-active. apnap order for resolving them, obviously.

since the angel came down and then loads of other bits it's easy to see how angel can be missed. meddling amges are naming their cards as they enter, but angel has to wait for the mess to clear.

the penatlies to each player are not the same. Greek gets Missed Trigger warning, American gets Failure to Maintain the Gamestate Warning. any proof of cheating on Kibler's part would have had to be done on the spot. The Warning can be retroactively given but it cannot affect the outcome of the tournament. Papa should have called a judge the moment they realized it if he wanted anything out of it.

NOTE: there's a judge RIGHT THERE. although we don't table-judge anymore, the judge would have corrected a mandatory trigger situation and warned both players appropriately. the board must have been so congealed as to even confuse the Judge... who's charge is to maintain the integrity of the game... If he could miss it, it's very easy to say Kibler could miss it. anda Papa DID miss it.

For it to be cheating the American would have had to deliberately mangle the board (or speak quickly to confuse a foreigner, maybe?) in such a way as to even obscure the judge's vision. then he would have had to tread carefully to not remind the Greek of his miss while other events happened. and THEN gotten awaya full turn without reminding him.
that's a tall order; manageable- but quite tall.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 624

Like i said before kibler actually stated in the interview afterwards that he didnt know why his opponent didnt kill anything with AoD. And he hold Baneslayer to play around it. This means he knew it and i think he should be DQ for that. Like i said i dont even think he knew he was cheating which doesnt realy change anything though.

ronjeremyjr · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 67

If he didn't know he was cheating then he wasn't cheating. Cheating as a category of infractions implies intent. If a judge asks you how many cards in hand and you say 5, then realize you actually have 6 you haven't committed cheating. You need to intentionally violate the rules to commit cheating. Anything else usually results in a Game Play Error infraction of some sorts.

Please note that I'm not defending Kibler, I'm just saying that unless we can prove that he knowingly violated the rules he hasn't cheated.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 624

So if a player doesnt know that hes not supposed to stack his library and does he is off the hook?

I dont know the paticular rules here, and i would be glad to know. But that just doesnt feel right. Since when does not knowing protect from the "law". But maybe thats how it works, i honestly dont know.

KeySam

ronjeremyjr · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 67

Well it's pretty hard to argue something like "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to stack my deck", so I don't think a lot of judges would buy that one. The cheating section is filled with offenses that are blatant disregard for the rules of the game.

For example, if you have sleeves where say all 4 lightning bolts have a mark on the corners (it can happen) then you're probably getting marked cards-pattern, a game loss at competitive REL. If you're using them to make play decisions then it's cheating. The cheating is brought on by the intent.

Tonya · Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 55

Sounds like a bunch of angry nerds to me. If you play an Angel of Despair and don't use the come into play ability on it, it's your own damn fault. I don't care what the rules are, but if you make a mistake, it's your fault. Kibler doesn't have to sit their and guide him on what to do with his side of the board. His opponent makes his own plays for himself and he screwed up, simple as that. It would be laughable to try and penalize Kibler with anything more than a warning.

xiko · Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 23

He didn't remind his oppo and he did now about the rules. That is a infraction of rules with intent on having an advantage.

That is the definition of cheating to me.

ronjeremyjr · Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 67

The problem is that the definition of infractions to players and the definitions of infractions we as judges are supposed to enforce are different.

If someone forgets an optional trigger or forgets to play their land for turn by the rules it's too late for the land, and we declined to perform the optional trigger. Now I know some players who say "that's unsportsmanlike conduct" or some other such nonsense. The simple fact is that unless someone can prove that Kibler knew the trigger wasn't optional, or didn't just genuinely forget at that time then there's no way to show it's cheating.

I agree that the after interview Kibler says he didn't know why the opponent didn't blow something up and that he purposely held back his baneslayer. Again though, in order to show cheating Kibler had to know the trigger was mandatory (he doesn't say that), and that he purposely let the trigger pass (he doesn't say that either). With a complicated game state, multiple cards entering play and priority passes it's possible that genuine mistakes do happen.

With all this being said I'm not saying Kibler didn't cheat, but I don't think that the "by the book" evidence is there right now.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 624

I copy pasted that out of the thread on mtgsalvation just to clear some things up: