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Why is noone talking about that?


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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject: Why is noone talking about that? Reply with quote

Why is noone talking about the cheating going on in the protour. Kibbler cleary cheated when he didnt remind his opponent about the Angel of Despair trigger. And no he didnt forget it he didnt put Baneslayer Angel into play to play around AoD. I guess people think its like not reminding an opponent that he missed a soul warden trigger, but its actually not the same. The rules are pretty clear in this regards. We dont choose which rules to follow and which not. I am also not a huge fan of this kind of rule, the fact remains that he break the rules on purpose, which is consider cheating and should be an DQ.

Any Thoughts?
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IkeReilly



Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

or he drew the baneslayer off the top and that's why he windmill slammed it? Considering that he had three meddling mages to play he could play around AoD anyway.
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Shooter
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

most ppl here = from usa
kibler = from usa

usaers like when usa wins

that's why Very Happy
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He did have the baneslayer in hand it says somewhere in the commentray. I guess most people missed the fact if he did not play the baneslayer he clearly knew about the trigger. You could still not really prove that he knew and was cheating, though he probably did.
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Christopholo



Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: why no one is talking about that Reply with quote

ya its pretty sad. I also feel its very likely that Kibler was certainly aware of the missed trigger; thats why he didn't drop the baneslayer angel right away and waited until the next turn. I'm not a big fan of the rule either, since ultimately the controller of an effect should be responsible for its placement on the stack.

A rule was still broken deliberately, and Kibler cheated. but as it stands, it would be impossible to prove that Kibler realized anything - even with him obviously holding the baneslayer back to prevent it from being destroyed.

In the coverage you'll notice that they weren't sure whether Kibler had just drawn Baneslayer or not; they assumed it must have come off the top, otherwise he would have put it into play with the HPG (What Buehler says).

BUT HE PLAYS THE BANESLAYER next turn off of a TEMPLE GARDEN. he had to have drawn Temple Garden THAT turn, otherwise he would have played a t4 Meddling Mage naming Hypergenesis. the only reason he couldn't was because he was missing white mana.

Anyway, Kibler cheated and the whole situation is very very disappointing; should be a DQ, would be difficult to prove though.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think its hard to prove, they have cameras on the hands of the players. Also i think i red on mtgsalvation that he sayed he was holding baneslayer angel back. And he obviously drew the temple garden he would played thatone for sure of the hypergensis. And if you prove he had baneslayer and holding it back that it doesnt die to angel of despair(the only logical explanation) you actually already proved he cheated.

The last thing standing in the way would be he could have though it was a may trigger.
There are a couple of things i want to say. You usualy see may triggers on repeadent effects(soul warden..) and at the top of my head i dont know a card that has a may with a comes into play effect.
Then even if he would been unsure he could take the card in his turn, read it if it says may nothing happens if it doesnt he reminds his opponent that he missed it and both get a warnign thatway hes save both ways. He cleary, intenttionaly did not tell his opponent about the AoD. This is fundamently different to other Situations like Yosei. I am actually sure they could easily prove that he had Baneslayer on hand and drew the temple garden if they want to.
I actually think the appropiate move from WoTC would be to DQ him afterwards.

Btw i am not saying Kibbler is a bad person, he might not even though about it as cheating, i dont know and i dont care to be honest. He broke the rules on purpose, which is a dq.

And by the way, i wouldnt be so harsh if he just played me for fun, we are talking about thousands of dollars here folks.

KeySam


Last edited by KeySam on Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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PenguinSlave



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don think it matters now,thats why noone's talking about it
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with that is you would have to infract both players. The rules state that both players are responsible for the trigger, so both would receive the same infraction. In addition there we're a lot of permanents that came into play, so it could have slipped his mind.

It's an unfortunate mistake, but you can't reasonably put everything on kibler.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ffancrzy wrote:
The problem with that is you would have to infract both players. The rules state that both players are responsible for the trigger, so both would receive the same infraction. In addition there we're a lot of permanents that came into play, so it could have slipped his mind.

It's an unfortunate mistake, but you can't reasonably put everything on kibler.


Your wrong, the difference between kibbler and is opponent is huge. His opponent missed a trigger, he gets a warning. Now if kibbler just missed it too he would also get a warning and i wouldnt even bother talking about it. But he did know about it and didnt tell his opponent. Theres nothing unfortunate about that, thats cheating, fraud .... Btw a fraud that was quite lucrative.

KeySam
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Ludz
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ffancrzy wrote:
The problem with that is you would have to infract both players. The rules state that both players are responsible for the trigger, so both would receive the same infraction. In addition there we're a lot of permanents that came into play, so it could have slipped his mind.

It's an unfortunate mistake, but you can't reasonably put everything on kibler.


Since Kibler held his angel backs, "evidence" points towards the fact that Kibler knew about the effect, while his opponent didn't. Not mentioning it at that point is considered cheating.
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Omnomcake



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so because Kibler's opponent missed a trigger he is cheating? There is not a person here who would have done anything different. Whoever he beat has nobody to blame here but themselves...
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Burton911



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say if he cheated or not, buf if he did it would be a clear statement against that stupid "making the good play for your opponent"-Rule.

But he knew about the Angel of Despair when it was time to put the Baneslayer on the Board, cause his opponent played only 2 Creatures, whereas he already had 3 Meddling Mages, so its quite logical to keep the Baneslayer.

The only thing what his opponent could do to win there, would be destroying 1 of the N Hirearchs, but he would propably choose one of the MMs anayway.
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Shooter
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the cheat was noticing the trigger and don't saying it, not about missing the trigger (if he didn't notice he'd have put slayer in play)




There is not a person here who would have done anything different.

talk about urself
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burton911 wrote:
I can't say if he cheated or not, buf if he did it would be a clear statement against that stupid "making the good play for your opponent"-Rule.

But he knew about the Angel of Despair when it was time to put the Baneslayer on the Board, cause his opponent played only 2 Creatures, whereas he already had 3 Meddling Mages, so its quite logical to keep the Baneslayer.

The only thing what his opponent could do to win there, would be destroying 1 of the N Hirearchs, but he would propably choose one of the MMs anayway.


Thats actually not true the only permanent that wouldnt win him the game was the meddling mage naming hypergenissis because he had both firespout and putrefy on hand which the other 2s where naming.

And i agree the rule is stupid, that doesnt change the fact that he cheated intentionally and it should be punished. You cant pick the rules to follow.

@Shooter i dont know what i would have done. Just because i say i maybe would have done the same doesnt make it right though and it should be punished accordingly. It sucks for Kibbler and i actually think the rules should change regarding this, but he still has to be DQ.
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ant900



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2525
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burton911 wrote:


The only thing what his opponent could do to win there, would be destroying 1 of the N Hirearchs, but he would propably choose one of the MMs anayway.


Actually if his opponent killed ANYTHING but the MM on hypergenesis then he would have won. Kibler only had 3 lands (none of which produced white) and a hierarch. So killing any of those would have dealt with the baneslayer. In addition the other two meddling mages were on firespout and putrefy, both of which the hypergenesis player had in his hand.


Ultimately it may technically be cheating, but I would consider it the fault of the Hypergenesis player for letting his guard down. He mad a sloppy play forgetting about the trigger of his own card, and he payed for it.
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