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Red/Black or Sligh...how are these not tier 1 decks?



 
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Red/Black or Sligh...how are these not tier 1 decks? Reply with quote

1.

You've got a creature far better than jackal pup in goblin guide.

You've got lightning bolt.

You've got ball lightning.

You've got fetchlands to thin land out of the deck.

How is sligh not a hot point of discussion?

Back in the day with these same cards it was easily a tier 1 deck.

2.

Black/red seems to have all the tools to wreck faces. Duress, bolt, blightning etc.

I've been out of the game for 6 years but these are the same old tools that dominated 10 or so years ago and they are going to be legal in standard. I just don't get what has changed? Do people fear a shift to bant decks in the meta or what?

Furthermore, check out the harrow, worldly council, etc. reprints. 5 color dead? Not even close. Just needs a few more pieces.
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Aion



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cards are better now but it might still be a really good deck
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kfcman



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well some of the reason is because you are confusing RB aggro with sligh.

A slight deck wouldnt play duress. Duress doesnt deal damage and as such is horrible in a slight deck.

Now, all the other elements yes, a Rb sligh deck is definitely going to be in a lot of early conversations, especially once all of zendikar is released.

However, dont overhype goblin guide. Attacking for 2 on turn 1 is awesome. BUT, it does help out the control player, and can get them through the early turns and help them stabilize.

Not saying don't play guide, but, dont overvalue 2 damage against ensuring control's land drops.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its not tier 1 bc there is no cursed scroll
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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That guy got to it before me.
Fireblast
Cursed Scroll
thats what got red decks ahead...
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Duodax



Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus you get nowadays good creatures and built-in lifegain (Wall of Reverence, Ajani Vengeant, Knight of Meadowgrain, Ajani Goldmane, Ki-finks, Captured Sunlight, Banebitch Pussy), then now the Vampire... Red is ultimately dead if your opponent is decent... Don┤t even try it is my recommendation. Or you want to luck win 1/10 games and be owned 9/10 games...
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the deck has some balls, come Zendikar. Bloodghast looks interesting and the 2/2 haste goblin looks promising, even though he benefits control when they were going to stumble on land. and all the people saying baneslayer angel ruins your day, we currently have doom blade, terminate, and deathmark as efficient answers to her. AND terminate gets a power bump due to BFT leaving the room, so you have no real reason to not be answering baneslayer. Goblin Outlander, Anathemancer, Shambling Remains, Hellspark Elemental, Lightning Bolt, Sign in Blood, kicker Shock, Blightning are all promising. im unsure about Ball Lightning though. he is good, but everyone should be running a good amount of efficient removal.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Red/Black or Sligh...how are these not tier 1 decks? Reply with quote

SJM wrote:
1.

You've got a creature far better than jackal pup in goblin guide.

You've got lightning bolt.

You've got ball lightning.

You've got fetchlands to thin land out of the deck.

How is sligh not a hot point of discussion?

Back in the day with these same cards it was easily a tier 1 deck.

2.

Black/red seems to have all the tools to wreck faces. Duress, bolt, blightning etc.

I've been out of the game for 6 years but these are the same old tools that dominated 10 or so years ago and they are going to be legal in standard. I just don't get what has changed? Do people fear a shift to bant decks in the meta or what?

Furthermore, check out the harrow, worldly council, etc. reprints. 5 color dead? Not even close. Just needs a few more pieces.


The answer to the lack of monored decks in tier 1 is simple.

They aren't fast enough to kill off the opponent before they can stabilize. Therefore they cannot have only efficient damage spells and creatures in the deck, since there is a need to maintain or gain board and card advantage if it is to have a fair chance against the majority of the metagame. Card advantage cards usually costs more than the spells you normally would run in Sligh/RDW, and so the deck will be slower.

In the end, you need to play the most powerful spells, and you won't find all of them in only red (or even RB).

Now, there is a chance that the reduced versatility of the manabases caused by the rotation of the Vivid lands will lower the average power of the multicolour decks because they are forced to cut one or more colours in order to achieve stability. This means that the relative power of monocolour decks will increase compared to the others, and thus the win ratio of RDW will increase for sure.

Time will show if it will increase enough to be a real contender.

I don't think decks that can't kill Battlegrace Angel will have anything to compete with. So it is Blightning Aggro running 3-4 Doom Blades in the main that is red's chance in the upcoming meta. Now that Burrenton Forge-Tender is gone, White does no longer have a bye vs Red. That will certainly help.
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Duodax



Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decks with Doomblade/Terminate will bust to Cascade, however. BBElf and Sunlight all are roadblockers, Bit Blast is just devastating and Enlisted Wurm... you are doomed if he cascades into the free 5cc spell... Planeswalker also need an instant answer and Ajani still has Priority to HELIX U Cool Just get RB out of your head, it won▀t work vs. experienced players and everyone who played current T2 is/should be kinda experienced to expect RB piles.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i hear talk Blightning has a good matchup against Cascade. i've been playing Jund Cascade since Chapin started making his first awful 5CB lists, and Blightning is an annoyingly bad matchup, the namesake card being a main point of trouble.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all if you just came back you probably dont know, right now(before the rotation) red is basicly unplayable because we have so many great hoser cards, that can a) be tutored for b) have relevant creature types c) are just great cards in general, i speak about burrenton forge tender and kitchen finks. Not to mention a strategy that gives red aggresive decks that like to attack something almost unhadable namly kithkin or any other token deck for that matter. With spectral procession getting 3 1/1s and card advantage. windbrisk hegihts for nice starts, the hate cards, knight of meadowgrain and global pump effects its a incredable bad matchup for red. Post rotation however this wont be the case anymore and i am pretty sure a good red black deck will emerge from that. But right now people dont talk about it, because we dont know how the meta looks like and maybe we get more hoser cards for red. Only time will tell.


KeySam
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kfcman wrote:
well some of the reason is because you are confusing RB aggro with sligh.


No, I'm saying either one should be viable.

The same old tools are here in standard for either one to be tier 1. Yet nobody seems to be talking about them.

It wasn't "r/b sligh" it was "sligh" OR "r/b."
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KeySam wrote:
First of all if you just came back you probably dont know, right now(before the rotation) red is basicly unplayable because we have so many great hoser cards, that can a) be tutored for b) have relevant creature types c) are just great cards in general, i speak about burrenton forge tender and kitchen finks. Not to mention a strategy that gives red aggresive decks that like to attack something almost unhadable namly kithkin or any other token deck for that matter. With spectral procession getting 3 1/1s and card advantage. windbrisk hegihts for nice starts, the hate cards, knight of meadowgrain and global pump effects its a incredable bad matchup for red. Post rotation however this wont be the case anymore and i am pretty sure a good red black deck will emerge from that. But right now people dont talk about it, because we dont know how the meta looks like and maybe we get more hoser cards for red. Only time will tell.


KeySam


Yea, kitchen finks seems like the main thing keeping it down. But like you said, all of those cards rotate out in a few weeks.

Furthermore, I don't see much hate in standard post rotation. Just flashfreeze and celestial purge, which are laughable compared to the hate needed to stop sligh back in the day (chill, warmth). Realistically flashfreeze is just a 2 mana counter, of which there were a ton back in the day and celestial purge is just another path to exile.
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now, cheap burn isn't plentiful enough to build a proper Sligh. Original Sligh had ~20 cards worth of direct burn for 3-4 damage each at 1-2 CC; right now you have 4 Bolts and trash. You simply cannot reproduce the amounts of reach the deck wants.

That said, let's look at it again post-Zendikar with Burst Lightning and Punishing Flames giving us two new relatively low-curve burn-spells. Can't quite get to 20 and not quite that good, but still passable cards. Really, up until now Sligh has lacked efficient reach allowing shit like Baneslayer Angel to be a problem. With enough burn, you can punish opponent for tapping out turn 5 by killing him.
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