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The Great Debate.


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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: The Great Debate. Reply with quote

As some of you may or may not know, Charlie Sheen has released a video and corresponding series of papers known as "20 minutes with the President." It has, for better or worse, brought a lot of attention on a rather touchy subject. 9/11. Frankly, if you ask me, it is obviously a cover up. Some how 2 planes brought down 3 towers. It just doesn't make sense. There are mountains of evidence against the official story, but I am not going to list it all here. Instead, I am bringing up what I think is the best evidence against the official story. The first responders. The firefighters and ambulance workers who where on the scene first. The first responders story's were ignored during the 9/11 commission. I am providing a link to a man much smarter then myself explaining his journey into 9/11 truth, and his research into the first responders story's.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwQa5eokieY

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg

Part 1 is background. Part 2 is First Responder interviews overview which took place within a month or two after 9/11.

Look, you may not be able to digest this all at once if you never have been exposed to it, but please do not assume that I am automatically wrong without watch the videos. The videos are very respectful, and very compelling. I just want people to watch with an open mind, if they don't convince you of anything, fine... But if they spark a certain feeling in your gut, a feeling that you are not being given the whole truth, you should try to discover the truth. All this information is public, and it just requires a thirst for the truth.

Charlies Sheen's video. Please note this is not where I suggest you start. Start with the other videos, although his is good too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKR2-A0KPU
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: The Great Debate. Reply with quote

Hank333 wrote:
Frankly, if you ask me, it is obviously a cover up. Some how 2 planes brought down 3 towers. It just doesn't make sense.


As soon as i read this part, i just stopped.

Only moronic, conspiracy theorists believe shit like this.

Go back to your basement and figure out another way we faked the moon landing
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Ragnarokio



Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats not nice, its not like a government has never tried to hide anything from anyone. I believe the official theory for the 3 towers thing is something to do with heat or whatnot, which sounds strange to me.

If you ask me i'm pretty sure the U.S. Government is trying to hide something, but what is unclear, saying that they drove two planes into the twin towers just as an excuse to go to war that probably wouldn't make them enough money to fix the damage they caused sounds a little stupid to me.
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cram320



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delicious, Thats your problem you just stopped reading...

If you look at the actual letter that Charlie wrote your oppinion would definetly change. If you honestly feel that way Delicious and Ragnarokio, your living under a rock and need to do some research on the internet other than listening to fox news.

Even if what Charlie is bringing up is not true, he is asking multiple questions that have zero answers from the government, if 911 was real, why can't these questions be answered?

Don't make comments like Delicious without reading Charlies letter to the president.
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cram320 wrote:
Delicious, Thats your problem you just stopped reading...

If you look at the actual letter that Charlie wrote your oppinion would definetly change. If you honestly feel that way Delicious and Ragnarokio, your living under a rock and need to do some research on the internet other than listening to fox news.

Even if what Charlie is bringing up is not true, he is asking multiple questions that have zero answers from the government, if 911 was real, why can't these questions be answered?

Don't make comments like Delicious without reading Charlies letter to the president.


Why read it?

It will be the same crack-pot theories that have been swirling for 8 years now. I have heard them all and I haven't heard one that I personally couldn't give a solid, coherent answer too.
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched the video to see if i could come up with my own answers.

The building falls:

In my mind this is the "smoking gun" I hear most about. If you really think about it, why doesn't it make sense. Metal doesn't need to be melted for the towers to go down. The jet fuel just needs to be hot enough to weaken the supports.

As each floor, internally starts to burn, it will get weaker and weaker. Then, the building will become to heavy to hold itself up. And common sense would say it falls now, and it does not fall straight down. How do you think WTC 7 is destroyed? The top of the tower slides to the side and destroys it. You think if the government wanted it to go straight down, they would make such a mistake like that

Controlled explosives:

You always see on "wildest home movie" shows and the such, places being brought down with explosives peacefully to make way for newer more sophisticated buildings and homes. And no matter how big the building, there is a rolling wave of dirt, but not for long. When the towers came down, it blanketed the city. Fragments from the towers were found miles and miles away, a nice controlled explosion would have never sent such debris.

The testimony:

This is the one that angers me in the most. I live in new york and knew people who were lost in the towers and know first responders. And they will tell you that they heard and saw explosions over and over. But what would you say if you were trying to evacuate a building, and a plane crashed into it, carrying a whole tank of fuel and traveling at over 600 MPH. This plane hits with so much force, what ELSE would you call what happened in those towers? And you know what else sounds like explosions, millions of tons of steel snapping because it is weakened by structural damage and fire.

I probably didn't hit every point, because i skipped around in the video. I refused to waste 20 minutes of my life.

After all of this; I still am proud to be an American and will tell anyone no different. I fly my flag outside my window everyday. This doesn't mean I don't question my government. I question them everyday of my life. But that doesn't mean I'm not proud to live on the greatest and free-est country on this earth.
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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a plane hits the building at say the 70th floor(for the sake of argument) why would there be explosions on the 20th floor? This is what First Responders are reporting... explosions on floors which should of sustained little to no damage. William Rodriguez, at the time a maintenance man for the WTC reported explosions in the basement minutes before the first plane even hit.

If a plane causes a building to fall a very specific way, would would another building(WTC7) which had no plane hit it fall in almost the exact same manner? You might say "well debris from the other towers hit it." which is true. But the symmetry all 3 towers share is unbelievable.

EG: If i try to knock down a building which a fire, and then another building i try to knock down with a wrecking ball, are the both going to have the same pattern when they collapse?

In the future, since during 9/11 fires alone and bring down building... 3 times. Why don't we always bring buildings down like this? It sounds cheaper to bring in a 10000 gallon tank of gasoline and just let it burn, rather then place very precise explosives evenly throughout the building.

You can go to the NY times website to see the first responders testimonial yourself btw. It is a lot of information to shift through though.
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CrushU
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cram320 wrote:
DIf you look at the actual letter that Charlie wrote your oppinion would definetly change. If you honestly feel that way Delicious and Ragnarokio, your living under a rock and need to do some research on the internet other than listening to fox news.


Because the Internet is always a reliable source for information.

That one part I bolded is the reason I won't be watching it. Assuming your opponents MUST be some radical faction or else they would believe you is a surefire Fail for any argument.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched an internet "movie" called Zeitgeist, and I've seen some of these 911 vids as well.

Personally, I do think 911 was a scam perpetrated by the American Government. But hey, what're ya gonna do? This is noticably like getting fired for trying to start a Union, or getting passed up for a promotion in lieu of a co-worker who's fucking the boss but on a much grander scale.

I can also see this as a movement by non-americans and americans with shitty jobs.

Who's to say what's the the truth? I don't fucking know, and realistically there's nothing anyone can do about it. It's frustrating either way, shit happens, regardless of whether it was intentional or not.

Personally I'm sick of the theories, I want to hear a solution. Enough people believe there's a problem, now's the time to figure out a realistic solution. How the fuck are you going to organize a resistance against the american government on the internet? I don't think it's possible.

Spreading the word isn't enough, we need a real resistance with a real leader we can all stand behind.
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cram320



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrushU...

It's because the internet CAN be unreliable at times that it is better, yes people can post something with incorrect facts, but also people can post the truth, the facts and the information the media wont show us through watching TV or the radio.

The internets better to get your info... as long us ur not an idiot... CrushU lol
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sheeple wasting your time on the 9/11 cover-up have no idea how deep the rabbit-hole goes. God, you people live your whole lives thinking that this one government pulled this one stunt to start this one war. God, don't you ever watch the REAL truth and learn the REAL facts? The Government has perpetrated so much more, and for so many sinister reasons. Do you want one example? How about the Titanic? Do you sheep really think that something made of ice could destroy something made of metal? And not just a sheet or two of metal, but multi-feet thick strengthened metal? The Unsinkable Ship? There are so many holes in the "official" story, I won't list them all here, you should do some research instead of watching CNN and faux (lol!) news! Just for example though, did you know that the Titanic had a sister ship, the Olympic? Where did that ship go? Was it even the Titanic that sunk that day? Did the Government use the sistership, pretending it was the real ship, and place explosives in the side to create a hole in the side and cause the sink to ship? I honestly don't know, but until someone proves otherwise, I'm assuming they did. You all need to wake up and see the TRUTH!
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Laplie



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 561

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answer me one question:

If they were going to use explosives to blow up the towers as part of some conspiracy, why have planes at all? Why not just blow up the towers and blame it on terrorists?

Every time I see one of these conspiracy theorist posts it makes me cringe. Do you realize how many people would have to be involved to pull something off like this? Hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Yet no one has come to say anything. Do you think that many people could stay silent in the face of so much death....

Rather than go through everything myself, I'll direct you to
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1 which pretty much goes through every single conspiracy theory argument and debunks it.

And of course there's always Maddox:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
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rast2



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who hates and fears the US government, I still think 9/11 happened pretty much the way the official story goes. The most likely conspiracy is that some people (Israelis) knew it was going to happen but did nothing to stop it, but even that is doubtful.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing I do not get with this is physics is a science with mathematical formula that can prove things, unlike psychology which I am currently studying which can only provide evidence supporting against or for. Something can be be shown to be falseable if enough condictary evidence is gathered.

I am fairly certain that if what happened that day was mathematically impossible, no government would be able to cover that up there are alot of smart people who would notice and the scientific world would smell a rat in no time. The world of science unlike the world of the internet is full of smart people who are not easily fooled.

I guess the government does not want to justify such crazy accusations with a response and in the process give the whole damn thing more credability, I am fairly certain they could prove the accusations false if they so desired. If the people who made these accusations were proper scientists they would be encouraging people to disprove what they had found, rather than going about it in the dramatic and reckless fashion, they have jumping to conclusions.

The way these people have gone about making there claims is the most damning evidence against the whole thing. If they had gone hey guys we have done the maths on the 9/11 thing and its just not possible, would some people be intrersted in replicating what we have done and see if they find the same then, I am sure the scientific communtity would be most fascinated and indulged them and found the logic and maths thats makes the event possible.
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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laplie:
Does Popular Mechanics Debunk the Eye witness accounts i linked? No, it doesn't. In fact what they do it take bad, speculative 9/11 theorys and debunks those, and doesn't acknowledge very important points made. For example Dr. Steven Jones(so you can google it) has a peer reviewed paper out which illustrates that a highly militarize grade of thermite was within the dust from that day. Popular Mechanics doesn't touch it with a 60 foot poll. I want to do a line by line of the piece of crap debunking job but i won't.

Edit to Laplie:
Didn't fully responded. You mentions how many would be involved. I would say about 100 directly, another few hundred in- directly. They tricky part is... Many of the people involved could of been in the WTC on 9/11, ensuring they are unable to speak. I believe the 9/11 is an example of killing many birds with one big stone. Make a bunch of cash, Change the mentality of a whole country, take away civil liberty's, create a bogeyman, start a war, and kill a bunch of people giving you trouble. Just imagine how if you were aware of 9/11, you could have a meeting that day on the 88th floor at 8:30 am and be sure that the person you sent to the meeting would surely be dead. A massive hit job... Others would are in positions where speaking out isn't good for there career. And the last bunch of people could speak about it, no one listens anythings. I have heard plenty of hearsay about people discuss what really happened on 9/11. So if someone came out and told the truth... who would listen? Certainly not any of the skeptics in here.
Really... who is too say that some haven't tried to speak out agianst it... no one listened anyways.

Coolcreep:
Completely agree about the Titantic. It was insurance fraud. The Titantic needed some very expensive work to be sea worthy, so they switch ships. I've been down the rabbit hole a far enough to know that if people can't understand that 9/11 is this bold face lie in there face, then that some other things that are true are not possible to digest. Its crazy to me that people can't believe the richest people in the world got together and say "Hey, makes stay the richest people in the world forever, and do whatever it takes to ensure we are always on top"... And that they would make what are called "multi-generational plans" to ensure there dominance. The Illuminati if you well... but the name is unimportant.

Jacios:

Solution? Its a tough one. All society's simultaneous losing all faith in all currency's and returning to a hard money society. Hard money as in Gold-Silver and other hard goods... you know, Food, Water, Houses, Tools, ect. I don't know how to pull that one off myself, but it is infact what i believe to be the solution from our enslavement. Zeitgiest is good, you should watch... with a grain of salt of course.

Rast2:
I curious... i know 20 minutes is a long time... but did you look? listen for 5 minutes at least? When you get down too the nuts and bolts, and examine the hard evidence, none of the official story is solid. None... The reason i feel the way i do is not because i hate America or something, but because i look to where the evidence points. And it points to controlled demolition. %60 of the 9/11 commission think it was a white wash, and that's main steam news.


Trotsky1:



IN General: Just some more things to think about. Every accept of 9/11 is flawed.
Pentagon did not have plane debris. No seats, no Luggage, No massive 757 engines. "Disintegrated?" really you believe Mr. Septic?
Shanksville, PA? Plane Crash? Really? Debris scattered over 8 miles? In a plane crash? Look at it for yourself.
WTC 7? Total collapse... no plane.
Eye Witnesses? How do you dispute them? There testimony was excluded from the 9/11 commission. In fact the 9/11 commission report doesn't talk much about 9/11 at all, it mostly talks about the war after wards.

Here is another video I believe to be very good. This gentlemen trys to lay out the math behind 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QMSAsOkumI


Sceptics always just say "you an idiot" and walk away, but I can never find anyone who really wants to do a run down on the facts behind 9/11. They'll link to popular mechanics, and not watch my information. They will label me a "conspiracy theorist" which I guess I am, but is that a bad thing? Yes, the rich teamed up to stay rich. Yes they killed JFK. Yes the create proxy wars for there own gain. Ug... i'll stop. Not like anyone is read, this is just magic-league.

Zendikar looks sick btw... I think fetch lands are a conspiracy too, they just happen to be rotating in as onslaught rotates out? Clearly they want to control they way extended feels. I love extended... but i Hate fetch lands... ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!
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