Some tweaks to Chapin's Dragonstorm. Optimized or Neutered?

Thicket · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 91

I've been playing (and loving!) Patrick Chapin's mono-red Dragonstorm build. But as is my usual tendency, the more I play, the more I think about potential changes to the list, and questions come up about why certain cards aren't on the list, why a certain number of cards are run, etc etc.

Here is my theoretical "new" list, and then thought processes behind the differences. Basically, what I'm wondering from you guys is: is my thinking is way off base? Or maybe your thoughts as to why Chapin has it as he does instead of how I propose. Since it's nothing new, I'll suppose most of you are familiar enough with his build that I don't have to type both out. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I'm at work and am taking a risk even typing mine out LOL But I will address the differences specifically after the list...

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Dragonstorm
4 Hellkite
4 Pyromancer's Swath
4 Grapeshot
4 Lightning Bolt (didn't these recently become legal again? if that's not true for extended I can replace with Incinerate)
4 Shock
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
3 Tarfire/Rift Bolt

and then 21 lands with the normal suite of 4 Knolls, "storage counter" lands (only 7 though), and Mountains.

Difference 1:
His build has 24 land, mine has 21 and is also minus one of the counter lands. I typically like a mana heavy deck, but with the Rites and Songs, in my play I haven't been mana screwed too often at all. Is this far too risky? The idea is to be able to have more copies of the spells because all of them are so important to be able to get for combo pieces. I'd be willing to put another land back in and go to 2 Tarfire/Rift, though if I did I'd be inclined to throw another mountain in. Mistake?

Difference 2:
The number of burn. Chapin's list has 13 burns, mine has 11. I don't think this makes a critical difference, the question for me is more if I should go with Tarfire or Rift Bolt. On the one hand, Rift is obv 3 dmg instead of 2, but on the other hand, I don't like that Rift essentially forces you to know you're going to go off next turn. Sometimes that's no big deal, but sometimes it delays you a turn when a Bolt/Incin could win on the spot. Right now I'm leaning towards Tarfire, but may change my tune upon seeing what you guys have to say about it. Also, what about Lava Spike? Does it being a sorcery affect it's stormability? It can't be used for spot removal, but the other 8 can.. so is it worth the extra damage for low cost?

Difference 3:
Seething song is absent from his list. That may be for standard legality purposes, but if we're talking extended, wouldn';t you guys agree Seething Song is extremely helpful here? In some of my games a Song has been the difference between able to go off and not able to go off. If it's not so important, I could at least lower the number, but like the all the spells in this deck, I really want to have one ready to go!

Difference 4:
4 Swaths. Swath is so helpful to go off, I started looking at non Dragonstorm decks with Swath just to see what those builds looked like. I was shocked to see most of those decks only ran 2 Swaths! And some of them less than 4 Grapeshots! In those decks, Grapeshot was LITERALLY the ONLY card that did any damage, and without Swath, Grapeshot does very little damage, even with a high storm count. Wouldn't those be the most important cards to have 4 of?? And therefore, in Dstorm where sometimes you have a Hellkite in hand or simply don't get a Dstorm, etc, wouldnt we want the highest odds possible of playing our "secondary" combo?

So that's been my thinking. I'm definitely open to criticism now, because I might be off base about some of this, but that's why I'm posting. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know why. Some other questions..

1. If I want to board in stuff like Ignite Memories or Empty the Warrens, what would I(or what does Chapin) take out? All the pieces seem so critical, it's hard to think of what should take a back seat to some of those other spells. I've never been more tempted to play a deck with over 60 cards! lol

2. What are your guys' thoughts on the storage counter lands? Any strategy on how and when you play them in relation to mountains? Sometimes when I'm sitting there waiting for the pieces to come together, they seem really good because they can beef up to a lot of mana, but in a situation where we can go off relatively soon, sometimes they seem really inefficient. But maybe that's just a trade off we need to deal with.

OK, this is much longer than I anticipated. Much thanks to anyone who reads thru this whole thing and responds. I really love this deck and the idea(s) behind it. But I'm looking to really optimize it, unless it's agreed upon that Chapin's list is the absolute ideal way to play it. I hate just copying a deck and like to make some tweaks for personal flavor. But if it's "flawless" as is, I won't mess with success.

Thanks!
-Jesse/Thicket

Duodax · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 168

LOOOL Rift Bolt is ALWAYS 4-off in that deck! Seriosly, do you know what happen if you suspend 2 on your 2nd turn and have 1st turn Knoll with D-Storm? BINGO.

Never let bad players "improve" other players´decks....

Omnomcake · Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 90

My advice - ditch the burn plan and play UR. The deck is just better.

Thicket · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 91

Yeah well there's no reason to be rude about it. That's why I'm posting and asking. I'm limited in my play and opposition, so some of this stuff isn't common knowledge or obvious to everyone. Doesn't make me "bad." Especially when I'm asking if I should make these changes, not declaring triumphantly that I've improved the deck. Thanks for the info, though, I guess.

Thicket · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 91

The UR versions I've seen have DEFINITELY intrigued me, but I can't wrap my head around Grapeshot being the only card in the whole deck that does any damage, and only 2 Swaths being run when it seems like there's no way to win without it. Card draw is nice, but only 2 of the deck's most important card? Unless there's something I'm missing.

I saw an article where a guy played out sample games, but each one started with a Swath and Grapeshot in hand. It seemed awfully convenient. Do we have to mulligan until we get those or just cross our fingers?

JSUOversoul · Joined: 08 May 2007 Posts: 107

I would also advise that you play the U/R version of Dragonstorm. It gives you two cards to dig through the deck to find your pieces, esp. Dragonstorm itself, gives you some countermagic to help force your combo through, and it doesn't depend mostly on what's under a land to combo off consistently. I played the mono-red Standard version back when it was the new "it" deck, and those were the problems that deck faced at times. Here is my current list, which was tweaked with the help of the ML community. There are no fetches in the mana base, mostly because this list is for post-rotation Extended for the upcoming season. I'm using the same mana base that was used when U/R Dragonstorm won worlds a few years back.

4 - Steam Vents
4 - Shivan Reef
4 - Mountain
8 - Island
1 - Dreadship Reef
1 - Calciform Pools

4 - Bogardan Hellkite
1 - Hellkite Overlord
1 - Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

4 - Dragonstorm
4 - Lotus Bloom
4 - Rite of Flame
4 - Desperate Ritual
4 - Seething Song
4 - Remand
4 - Ponder
4 - Peer through Depths

Sideboard: (This will probably change depending on the new metagame after rotation/Zendikar's release)

4 - Pact of Negation
3 - Gigadrowse
3 - Shattering Spree
3 - Echoing Truth
2 - Chalice of the Void

Most of the maindeck choices are pretty obvious. The Overlord and Karrthus are awesome as dragons 5-6. The Overlord gives you a 8/8 hasty beater to still kill with if you storm for 4 and you have a Hellkite in hand, and the same goes with Karrthus. If you storm for 4 and have a Hellkite AND Overlord in hand, then you drop 3 Hellkites and Karrthus and they take (hopefully) more than enough damage to be lethal. Karrthus is also still lethal if you can only storm for 3 (Lotus, Seething Song + 4 lands, Dragonstorm), 2 Hellkites + him = 27 total.

The sideboard, as mentioned, is probably going to change, but playing the U/R version gives you access to Pact of Negation, which can be crucial to winning against control. Same for Gigadrowse, being able to tap lands EOT before you go off is nuts for this deck. Plus, with mono-red, you pretty much have no outs if Rule of Law is still played (which remains to be seen). My advice is to play U/R, just more consistent and better options are available for different matchups. Hope that helps.

Thicket · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 91

That looks like a pretty sick deck! A few questions come to mind:

1. I'm asking this purely based on articles and threads I've been reading rather than my own critique, but: would mind's desire fit well in here? In another thread someone asked why one would play a storm deck with Blue without Mind's Desire. While I have no experience with it personally, it seems like it might help buff this up? Or does it not fit? If so what might you replace?

2. If you wanted to board in the gigadrowses, pacts, and/or whatever, what would you feasibly take out?

3. If our opening hand has no Dstorm in it, what would you consider an easy keeper hand? Or what would you aggressively mulligan for? (either with or without the Desire, depending on your answer to the 1st question)

Sorry if I'm asking Storm 101 questions, but I'm pretty much totally new to storm decks aside from a week or so of messing with the mono red Dstorm, hence posting this thread in the 1st place. But I love the mechanic!

I'm totally open to adding blue, I just want to make sure I understand how/why it can be as/more powerful than the mono-red one Ive been playing (and you already started to address that, JSU, thanks. Consistency is a huge selling point).

Thanks!

blitzer2k7 · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 114

Well I can answer your first question. The reason desire isn't in the list is because he stated it was for post rotation extended. and with Scourge rotating out, desire goes with it.

Thicket · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 91

ahh, my bad. I'm not up on all that, pardon my ignorance.

Duodax · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 168

Really no Gigadrowse Maindeck? Its a Timewalk and you don´t bust vs. counter....

Trotsky1 · Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 1661

Yep you do want to make space for one or two, peer through depths means you can get away with running that few of the cards as your not in to big a rush to find it in the match ups in which it is relevant.

metzel_usa · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 120

Chalice being in the SB for???? I know its good but laying it at 0 1 2 3 isnt really good...and 2 storage seems a little light...id run 3 MD and replace the 2 chalice sb with 2 more...giga is that important vs some decks and it comes down to whether or not you have a storage that can lock them out or not...just my advice...i would really consider the storages as i won many many turnies solely because of storages when dstorm was the "noob" deck.

Duodax · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 168

Eureka_Suspended.dec

IberianWolf · Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 153

Trotsky1 · Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 1661