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M10 (Magic 2010) Rule changes.


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Crossbow



Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are missing the point. The 2010 changes are NOT about any of you. They are about making the game easier to teach or intuitively learn, thus keeping new players entering the game, thus allowing the game to stay healthy and continue.

Call it oversimplifying if you want, call the new players retards, a lot of you do anyway, which goes a long way towards explaining the community respect level for m-l players. This game has existed for this long because wizards dosn't give a rat's ass about the purely and exclusively competitive level player that snubs or insults the new or young player, in fact, you are actively ignored and squashed to the best of their ability.

This game lives on new blood, when a player gets burned because he finds out the way he figured the game works is wrong at his first FNM, that is the guy that wizards cares about losing, not you guys.

The funny thing is, if you are smart about it, you would be glad that is the case, because the games that care about that style of player aren't around anymore. (When is that next Spoils world Champs again? Where is the next stop on the VS Pro Tour?)

Just sayin'
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Welran



Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laplie wrote:

If the defender is going to sac Sakura anyway, then the attacker keeps his Dark Confidant and attacking didn't hurt him. Maybe the attacker wanted to bait his opponent into trading since he had another Confidant backup in hand? Maybe the attacker wanted to get rid of Confidant since he realized he was going to kill himself? Maybe the attacker wanted to force his opponent to sac Sakura now so he can Stone Rain the land on his second main phase?


there is no reason to attack you just gives opponent right to choose kill confidant or not. you should never give such choices to opponent. only reason to attack is if oppponent has few life and you have succesfully casted predatory focus
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crossbow wrote:
You guys are missing the point. The 2010 changes are NOT about any of you. They are about making the game easier to teach or intuitively learn, thus keeping new players entering the game, thus allowing the game to stay healthy and continue.


I laughed Laughing

It's true that WoTC wants to attract new players, and so they made these changes to help players understand the game better. But it OBVIOUSLY isn't to keep the game healthy and continue (not the true reason, at least), it is so they can KEEP MAKING MONEY! I already said this some while ago: the world is in a big financiary crisis, and WoTC is no exception. You are all focusing on this rules changes, but you are forgetting to add the other changes they've made so far:

- Planeswalkers, yeah right, why not? Turns the game more realistic;
- A set full of gold cards? New players like gold cards. Even I like gold cards;
- A set with tribal and hybrid cards for the same reason above;
- Oh, almost forgot, the new rarity Mythic Rare;
- And the new site design they made, which sucks big by the way.

All this = more new players, which in turn equals more Money!

Conclusion: New players get happy, WoTC gets happy, but the TRUE players of magic, the ones that play the game for a long time, are the ones that get to suck this up and live with it.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1173

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynolf wrote:


Conclusion: New players get happy, WoTC gets happy, but the TRUE players of magic, the ones that play the game for a long time, are the ones that get to suck this up and live with it.


Well, I've been playing for a long time (Unlimited) and I think the new rules are great. So don't imply that this is a bad thing for me just because I've been playing so long.
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Jag4



Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, I've been playing for a long time (Unlimited) and I think the new rules are great. So don't imply that this is a bad thing for me just because I've been playing so long.



I've been playing since revised and I don't see the rules as a problem either
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Carnubak



Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trotsky1 wrote:
[...]anyone can learn the rules they are not complicated.
[...]I do not feel the rules need simplyfying millions have sucessfully learned them, I do not cater for quiters.


I think here's where you go wrong. Last time I've taken a look at the Comprehensive Rules (February 1st, 2009 edition. Cascade was not in the game yet), it was a 151-page book, and it contained 9 Keyword Actions and no less than 80 Keyword Abilities (a few more, in fact). The fact that in some formats, part of those abilities are not relevant is not important for the new players, since the casual kitchen table players do not care about formats, they just play with the cards they can get their hands on. Usually this implies a mix of in-print and out-of-print sets. Which makes them having to learn those rules anyway.

The point is, this game is complex by design. It might well be the most complex and difficult to learn game in the world. I haven't played every game that exists, but I'm a gamer and have played a lot of card and board games, and this is by far the one with the most complicated rules. the fact that there are more that ten thousand different pieces (cards) for it is just an added layer of complexity.

To most of the old school players, it does not look like that, because all the changes were incremental. Just a few added keywords with each new block, and if you kept playing frequently, you could absorb those rules in small amounts each time. But new players don't have that luxury, they have to face fifteen years of added rules. It's a lot to take at once.

I have been playing Magic since 1996. The first cards I had were fourth edition. I had to take some time off in a few occasions because of financial reasons (this is an expensive game) and I missed some blocks. Every time I came back, I had to set myself to learn a whole batch of new rules, and get used to the newer cards that were being played. It took me time. And I had the advantage of previous experience with most of the rules.

I don't think that trying to simplify the learning process and streamlining the rules is bad for the game. If something, it is good, since it helps kitchen table players make the jump to FNMs and, from there, to the tournament scene. And it's new players that keep the cards flowing for the serious tournament players, let's not forget that. New players buy and open far more product than the top end tournament players who just keep themselves running with prizes and by buying/trading for singles.

Are the new rules easier to teach to new players? Honestly, I do not know, since I haven't tried to teach anyone the new rules yet. But I do know that the fewer things you have to add once you taught the basics, the better. Under the pre-M10 rules, damage on the stack would not present itself until you had to make a tricky play, and the "student" would feel cheated by the "teacher" for not saying so before. If you tried to teach it a priori, it didn't "feel" right. Under the M10 rules, combat interactions (ordering of blockers, and damage distribution) will come up from the first combat where both sides have creatures in the battlefield. I believe that will make the learning curve smoother. I'll have to verify if that's the case.


Last edited by Carnubak on Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: Wizards suck! Reply with quote

Sorry, I didn't explain myself correctly. My point wasn't saying every player that plays magic for a long time doesn't like the new rules. What I meant was that Wizards, instead of making the game more fun for EVERYONE and keep its true essence, they now only care about attracting new players to get more money. And that is what's starting to make the game suck.

In other words, Wizards are like: "Who cares about the old players? They love the game. It isn't this rules change that's going to make them quit, they're too addicted to let that happen. What we need is a way to attract new players and force them to get into the game, so that they buy more boosters and Intro Packs and we get to stay rich!"

And if you don't believe what I'm saying, compare the changes that have been happening since Lorwyn with the changes that occured in the past years, and you'll see it's not a coincidence.
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Carnubak



Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynolf wrote:
[...]It's true that WoTC wants to attract new players, and so they made these changes to help players understand the game better. But it OBVIOUSLY isn't to keep the game healthy and continue (not the true reason, at least), it is so they can KEEP MAKING MONEY![...]


In a way, you're right. And in a way you're wrong.

Yes, Wizards is trying to keep making money. They are a company, with lots of employees, and need to pay the bills. Besides, the whole point of the company is to make money. They make games in order to make money. They might as well be selling clothes, or cars, or internet services. That's not the point of contention. Everyone who thinks they create games just because they want to keep us gamers happy, and don't care about the money is wrong.

On the other hand, them making money is a way to keep the game healthy and allow it to continue. If they couldn't keep the game running, it would wither and die, as numerous examples in the Dead CCG Gallery can attest to. They keep it running by creating new sets that keep the game fresh and challenging (sometimes with better success than others). They also maintain the infrastructure of the competitive play with events such as the Pro Tour, the Grand Prix and the Worlds Championship. Also through the DCI and the Judges program. They keep it attractive for newer players through FNM, etc. All of this costs money to keep running.

It is in the interest of the game that Wizards can make money to fund it. And most of that money is from new players making the jump to competitive play. Wizards is trying to make that jump easier at first, by removing one of the rulings that create most confusion for the kitchen table players (read, not the ones that already know the Comprehensive Rules by heart, but the ones that have once read the resumed rulebook that they got with their first purchase. Or the ones that leard to play from a friend who, in fact, may well be another casual player without a full understanding of all the corner cases of the rules).
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Carnubak



Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Wizards suck! Reply with quote

Well, given the vast number of people who play, it would be impossible to make the game more fun for everyone, since different people like the game for different reasons.

I don't feel slighted by the rules changes, and I have been playing for a long time. Since the announcement, I haven't felt that Wizards has decided to stop caring about me. Some players have. I suppose it has to do with different play styles and different experiences of play, I don't know.

And I don't have a problem with Wizards making money, since that's what keeps the game alive, as I stated in my previous post.
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Eidolonz



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so which archetype (control, aggro, combo...) gets screwed the most by these changes?

I'm thinking mid-range

Anyhow, I think the changes are for the better.They seem to make some cards play more fair, or make for more skill-intensive combat phases.
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Shagrath



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Eidolonz wrote:
so which archetype (control, aggro, combo...) gets screwed the most by these changes?

I'm thinking mid-range

Anyhow, I think the changes are for the better.They seem to make some cards play more fair, or make for more skill-intensive combat phases.


Control is already screwed, with a zillion cards that pwn it instantly. WOTC started a campaign to destroy control decks some time ago. So control doesn't need a few stupid new rules to dmg it, cuz control is being screwed since WOTC stopped developping cards for that kind of deck.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1173

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Shagrath wrote:
Eidolonz wrote:
so which archetype (control, aggro, combo...) gets screwed the most by these changes?

I'm thinking mid-range

Anyhow, I think the changes are for the better.They seem to make some cards play more fair, or make for more skill-intensive combat phases.


Control is already screwed, with a zillion cards that pwn it instantly. WOTC started a campaign to destroy control decks some time ago. So control doesn't need a few stupid new rules to dmg it, cuz control is being screwed since WOTC stopped developping cards for that kind of deck.


5 colour control is a control deck. Go figure. And I don't know if you've ever played against faeries, but the fae sure fucking feel like a control deck to me. It's not "boring" control anymore, now it's just "annoying" control.
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