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M10 (Magic 2010) Rule changes.


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Gerr



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoever doesn't agree with the upcoming rules changes might want to sign this online petition (seems a serious one, and number of people signed grows at the speed of more than 1 per minute): http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/give-stacked-combat-damage-a-chance
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Welran



Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Healing salve become worse
player 1 attacks player 2 with wild nacatl
player 2 blocks with wisened cenn
damage to stack
cast healing salve preven 3 damage to cenn

after m10
player 1 attacks player 2 with wild nacatl
player 2 blocks with wisened cenn
cast healing salve prevent 3 damage to cenn
player 1 cast gaint growth
dealing damage - owned!
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Carnubak



Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerr wrote:
Whoever doesn't agree with the upcoming rules changes might want to sign this online petition (seems a serious one, and number of people signed grows at the speed of more than 1 per minute): http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/give-stacked-combat-damage-a-chance


I, in particular, don't think that the changes are bad, and have already stated so. I don't think that people can properly evaluate the changes without actually testing them a few times. I wonder how many of the petitioners have actually tried the new rules.

On the other hand, I don't think this petition would have any effect on the decision and, besides, even if I were to sign an online petition (which I wouldn't), I would at least choose one that is properly written and sounds coherent. That petition is a joke, not giving any actual facts for its justification and is written in a horrible English. At least a small attempt at articulation would be welcome.
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Gerr



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's the best I've ran across. You should've seen the wording on the others.Smile

Yeah, I'm looking forward to testing the new rules too. Are they bad? Kinda depends on what you call 'bad'. I think that pretty much every decent player would agree that at least the new rule of stacking the defenders and impossibility of dividing my attackers' damage among them is very bad for strategic possibilities.
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Malakai97
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes one example for a player to understand combat damage using the stack. One.

Combat damage using the stack comes up in every single game in limited, usually multiple times. That is how limited games are won.

And I fail to see how changing "in play" and "removed from game" to "in the battlefield" and "exiled" simplifies matters. That's like saying using spanish words and phrases will simplify the game for non-spanish speakers.

However, no matter how much we complain it's not going to matter. They said in the article they did focus testing, polls, etc. I don't see this change getting revoked, even though it should be.
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Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerr wrote:
I think that pretty much every decent player would agree that at least the new rule of stacking the defenders and impossibility of dividing my attackers' damage among them is very bad for strategic possibilities.


I'm not sure I'd fall under the category of "decent player", but I'm not so sure that ordering creatures for damage, rather than splitting damage any way one likes among them, will necessarily be bad for strategic possibilities.

I work in corporate strategy, and I've found that strategy usually boils down to focus, which really means putting more resources on a few (or one) thing(s) while denying those limited resources to other things. Essentally, since you "can't have your cake and eat it too", you have to make the hard decisions about what you REALLY want, and what you're willing to give up for it.

Someone in an earlier post mentioned this: You previously had *much* easier decisions with cards like Sakura Tribe-Elder or Mogg Fanatic - you might as well assign the damage AND get the additional ability. No trade-offs at all.

Ordering creatures to take damage is similar; you can't just soften up multiple targets for a Pyroclasm to finish them all off; instead, your decisions are more difficult. Anyone can do the former to wipe the board; a skilled player will make the better choices of how to do the latter.

It's when you have to make more trade-offs and your decisions become more difficult that those decisions become more important. And these new rules help do that. In effect they make skill MORE important, not less.

Kytep
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Understanding the stack is part of the skill that bafflingly many people do not understand. Should these people be punished for not fully understanding this pretty simple concept I say yes wizards say no, we want dumb people to be able to win at magic to.

The decisions that you present are not all that much harder to a competent player they still almost always have an obvious answer no more lands in hand block and sac before damage. All the lands you need and some cards to fill out your curve trade.

All this is doing is taking a way the opportunity to punish inexperienced or people to stupid to understand the stack, its not a complicated matter, call me snobbish but I prefer it if the average magic player has an IQ a bit higher than your average dogs (can understand the stack.) It takes allot of time to learn because its worth learning the reward is alot of fun and challenging games, these changes to the rules detract from the challenge. They put weaker players on a more level footing and I want to make maximum advantage of every edge I can get when it comes to card games, it is indisputable to me that to the competitive player this is a bad thing, that edge you once had over lesser players well part of it is gone.

Wizards want to make magic appeal to everyone and to do that they have a decided to make a game thatís one of its greatest assets is its many facets and complexity and dumb it down. The reason for this is they are trying to appeal to a wider market, I would much prefer it if they advertised magic as a game for the intellectual elite the strategy of chess the mathís of poker. It may not be true that it testís strategy to the depths of chess or mathís to the depthsí of poker but it does encompass both skills not many card games can boost that.

I feel wizards are being to greedy they are trying to make the game appeal to people that the game is just not meant for and its time we the magic community say hey you know the reason we like this game it is because it is challenging, it is complicated, it takes time to learn and thatís the way we want it to stay.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It just seems like all the detractors are saying that new players are dumb because they don't want to learn magic's "strategic" complexities (ie stacking damage), but then complaining when they themselves are forced to learn how to play differently.

Heh, you're all pretty much calling yourselves stupid.
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most changes are fine, although i am not a fan fo the renaming i dont realy care as long we are not getting to this point:

http://magiclampoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/yavimaya-elder.gif

Wink
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Acid_Christ



Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

venom_aa wrote:
I have played magic since 4th and theres a BIG diference between those changes and the M10 changes.

The changes that took in 6th edition was a normal evolution to the game, erasing interrupts and creating the stack was a great idea. Granted that it took my group one month more or less to learn the new rules and at first we were bitching just like today but when we saw the full potential of the the stack we totally forgot about the pre 6th rules.

But the m10 rules are not an evolution, its a devolution of the game to something near 5th rules. Also they're killing the following:

All you learned from 6th to m10 in deck building and with that interactions and potential of some mechanics and cards of the same time window. Limited, t2, extended and block. Some cards that costed you guy $10,$20 are worth crap now or atmost half their value.

The trust of the fan base, back then they said the same things that they hoped to never changes the core rules again. Guess what, they did, under doubtful circunstances cause they want to appeal to new players. So what about the loyalty of the new players? The message is: "We dont care"

The potential to grow as a player, by making it "easier" theyre putting a cap to the players, a similar cap to what u had in 5th. True, the stack on combat is also a cap. but with a higher level of dificulty. Learning how to read your opponent and the proper implications on how to bluff and theorize about what could happen after damage.

Putting simplier, they just transformed chess to checkers. To most people chess looks like a boring difficult game but if you learn how to play it properly, checkers will be the most boring game in the planet.

They want to attract new players. Advertise like freaking yugioh did and all those 15 minutes of fame card games that came with it. Make tournaments for begginers only with atractive prizes.

There are better ways than the m10 rules and to be honest I doubt that the new rules will help wizards incomes. Card games are not a trend at least not rigth now and all theyre is wasting time and effort in something that will hurt them more than help them.


amen
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Berzerker



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules change are big, as were the rules change for 6th. I have been playing since revised, at first when the 6th rules came about I was really confused. I had just started to understand the whole batch spell resolution thing. The only rule change that will have any significant impact on the game is the combat damage not using the stack. The way they are changing it, combat is way more intuitive. Creatures that are dealt damage die...period. While I understand peoples apprehension it will mostly just alter the way people look at combat and the way people construct decks. It actually has minimal effect on the actual game play. When was the last time someone attacked into your mogg fanatic with a 2/2 or for that matter blocked your mogg fanatic with a 2/2. It doesn't happen that often. The new rules just alter how you look at the situation. Magic players simply hate change. In a couple of years people will wonder what all the fuss was really about and the new rules will become what we all are used to. We should give the rules changes some time before making judgments.
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Jag4



Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's when you have to make more trade-offs and your decisions become more difficult that those decisions become more important. And these new rules help do that. In effect they make skill MORE important, not less.



I totally agree with this, it's a automatic given that Mogg Fanatic or Sakura will often 2 for 1 in combat situations. Mogg was good before 6e combat damage rule changes, post 2010 if he is/was around people will/would still play him anyway to kill birds/heirach's, which why we played him around Tempest 5ed anyway.


Re. Trotsky, To be quite frank, I do not consider myself blessed with little more than average intelligence and left school with no further education (no A levels or O levels) but have beaten quite a few people who considered themselves more intelligent than me...intelligence is one factor of what makes a good magic player but not the only one.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said it was the only thing but you do not even have to be smart to understand the stack.

The type of people who do not get it after they've been playing the game for a while are the same people they put warnings on hammers and stuff for, saying do not smash your own head with this.
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Socks3



Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tengo una idea.

How about this? We all use MWS. It's easy enough, in non-League games, to specify "Combat samage uses stack here" in a game description.

Same for mana burn.

You don't have to play by the new rules on MWS if you don't want to.

That said, I agree with the changes they're making for the most part. It's not lowering strategy - it's bringing in different strategy. As for the battlefield, the name's kind of corny, but it's better than "In play."
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EQ_killa



Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trotsky1 wrote:
Understanding the stack is part of the skill that bafflingly many people do not understand. Should these people be punished for not fully understanding this pretty simple concept I say yes wizards say no, we want dumb people to be able to win at magic to.

The decisions that you present are not all that much harder to a competent player they still almost always have an obvious answer no more lands in hand block and sac before damage. All the lands you need and some cards to fill out your curve trade.

All this is doing is taking a way the opportunity to punish inexperienced or people to stupid to understand the stack, its not a complicated matter, call me snobbish but I prefer it if the average magic player has an IQ a bit higher than your average dogs (can understand the stack.) It takes allot of time to learn because its worth learning the reward is alot of fun and challenging games, these changes to the rules detract from the challenge. They put weaker players on a more level footing and I want to make maximum advantage of every edge I can get when it comes to card games, it is indisputable to me that to the competitive player this is a bad thing, that edge you once had over lesser players well part of it is gone.

Wizards want to make magic appeal to everyone and to do that they have a decided to make a game thatís one of its greatest assets is its many facets and complexity and dumb it down. The reason for this is they are trying to appeal to a wider market, I would much prefer it if they advertised magic as a game for the intellectual elite the strategy of chess the mathís of poker. It may not be true that it testís strategy to the depths of chess or mathís to the depthsí of poker but it does encompass both skills not many card games can boost that.

I feel wizards are being to greedy they are trying to make the game appeal to people that the game is just not meant for and its time we the magic community say hey you know the reason we like this game it is because it is challenging, it is complicated, it takes time to learn and thatís the way we want it to stay.


I'm not sure what your worried about, this doesn't give "stupid" people an advantage, it actually makes combat harder. before, you would always sac your creature while damage was on the stack to get a 2 for 1 advantage. Now you have a decision, do you want to trade the creatures or use the sac ability. The people that don't understand the stack now probably don't play competitively anyways and aren't gonna be pros all of a sudden after these new rule changes.
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