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Turbo-Cascade: RG


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks

Which deck will be better in post-ARB T2?
Cascade Blightning
59%
 59%  [ 16 ]
Turbo-Cascade RG
7%
 7%  [ 2 ]
Doesn't matter; neither will be competitive
33%
 33%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 27

Author Message
Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject: Turbo-Cascade: RG Reply with quote

I've created a deck which I'm finding to be quite a bit faster than Cascade Blightning (typical goldfish kill on Turn 5; Turn 4 is possible in numerous ways). The question is: Is it really better? More on that after the decklist:

4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Jund Hackblade
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Rip-Clan Crasher
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Violent Outburst
4 Incinerate
4 Shock
1 Hurly-Burly
1 Colossal Might

4 Karplusan Forest
4 Fire-Lit Thicket
4 Forest
10 Mountain

SB (work in progress)
4 Everlasting Torment (vs. most of my problems: Wall of Resistance, BFT, Rhox War Monk, Finks, Knight of Meadowgrain, even large creatures like Doran)
4 Threaten (vs. All-in-Green, other fatties; often is worth at least 4 dmg (remove blocker = let 2 more through + whatever the stolen creature can deal)
4 Pithing Needle (Planeswalkers)
3 Hurly-Burly (Faeries, Spectral, SGC, other tokens; not Fallout because most of mine have 2 toughness)

Note that all of my creatures except for Tattermunge have haste. This is huge not only in getting in more damage faster, but also works well with Violent Outburst (the Cascaded creature resolves first, then gets the bonus when Outburst resolves). It also means most creatures get at least 1 punch in before a Wrath effect (granted, Fallout foils this, but I think Fallout is easily played around; you can hold back a bit and they'll find they MUST still play it and take the 2 damage - the equivalent of another RCC hit - then you're back next turn with more waves. I usually actually like it when my opponents play Fallout; I don't think I've lost a game where an opponent has played it).

Random singleton Hurly-Burly and Colossal are there to occassionally win games, but I don't want more than 1 each maindeck cluttering up my hand; Colossal Might invites spot removal of course)

So, is this better than Cascade Blightning? That is, what is the incremental value of the speed of this deck vs. the incremental value of the Black cards (Blightning, Outlander, Terminate/Terror, Maelstorm Pulse, Anathemancer, Bituminous Blast)?

I've played both decks a fair amount, and I can say with reasonable confidence that the RG haste version tends to kill about 2 - 3 turns faster than the Jund, non-haste version. So, let's compare the Black cards vs. the RG counterparts:

Blightning vs. Violent Outburst: VO typicall does about 4 points of damage (Cascade into a hasted 2/2 or 3/x, give 1 or 2 creatures +1), sometimes 5 or even more, the turn it's cast. So, upon casting, it's worth about 1 - 2 more points of damage than Blightning. But Blightning takes 2 cards from the opponent. Usually this is good/important; occasionally it is bad (Wilt-Leaf Liege). But VO also often doesn't stop with the 1 - 2 extra damage; it often puts a permanent into play, the equivalent of drawing (and casting) another board threat. It's tough for me to say which is really better overall, but it seems to me that VO is better suited for a shorter aggro game, whereas Blightning is suited for a longer mid-range type of game. But since longer tends to favor more controlling decks, I think this could tip a bit towards VO, but again, I'm not 100% sure of that.

Goblin Outlander vs. Rip-Clan Crasher: Sure, Outlander is great vs. RW Cruise and WW (which are troublesome matchups to begin with), and that's not to be taken lightly. But RCC's haste is often enormous, especially in a deck packing VO. When the deck's Turn 5 (or 4!) kills typically deal 20 - 21 damage, haste often makes a full turn of difference. Perhaps I haven't played vs. enough RW Cruise or WW yet, but I personally like RCC a bit better so far.

Terminate/Terror vs. Shock: Obviously, the only thing Shock has over Terminate/Terror is the fact that it can hit the opponent. But again, when the typical kill is 20 - 21 damage, 2 damage can often make a full-turn's difference. One big (and obvious) hole however is BFT, which Terror can take care of but Shock falls far short. Other shortfalls are Wall of Reverence and other large blockers. Terminate/Terror probably has the upper hand here. One key consideration though: If you can kill them before they can even draw/play the wall/blocker...

Maelstrom Pulse vs. Colossal Might: One is obviously there for control (or neutralize your opponent's control) and the other is there for pure speed. I think if a deck can put together enough speed to take advantage of an opponent's missed 4th land drop or force early Wraths, the faster deck probably has advantage over the more controlling one.

Anathemancer vs. Jund Hackblade: Granted, Anathemancer can be HUGE in turning a likely loss to a potential victory in a longer game (I am a huge A-mancer fan). But that again is usually ceding the fast game to the opponent in favor of a potential larger hit later. I'd prefer the usually-hasted 3/2 (note that all of my creatures except Hellsparks are multi-colored, as is Everlasting Torment) to end the game sooner.

Other differences: I can run fewer lands (22) than Cascade Blightning (24 - 25), since my curve is lower. This means I tend to have more gas to close the deal. I also only run two colors, meaning I have less color screw, even as I can run more basic lands to get around opposing A-mancers and provide PtE targets.


So, it seems to me that the differences basically come down to the following:

Turbo-Cascade is more focused in that it takes the role of the aggro deck and pretty much goes all-out to get the quick kill. This punishes bad draws of the opponent, and knocks most decks on their heels to defensive mode. (Note that this does NOT mean you should just blindly play threats as quickly as you can; your opponent is usually not a goldfish. Be sure to especially play around Wrath effects, which is not very difficult for this deck.)

Cascade Blightning, on the other hand, is more of a mid-range deck (compared to Turbo-Cascade), which means it gives up some early beats for a better shot at the longer game.

Again, it's difficult for me to say right now which is better; I really don't know. But my intuition tells me that a strategy more focused on a deck's core strengths (aggro) will probably be more successful than a deck that tilts towards trying to play other decks' games (control).

Sorry for the long post, but I'm looking to get some good discussion here. I'd love to hear your (constructive) comments, especially after you've playtested.

Thanks,
Kytep
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The overall card quality of your deck compared to RB blightning is much lower. The cards may work better together but I think it should be noted as a draw back of the deck, that the indivudal quality of the cards takes a dramatic reduction between the two decks.
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Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trotsky1 wrote:
The overall card quality of your deck compared to RB blightning is much lower. The cards may work better together but I think it should be noted as a draw back of the deck, that the indivudal quality of the cards takes a dramatic reduction between the two decks.


Thanks for the comment. Which cards specifically do you mean (and more importantly: Why)? I provided some comparisons in my original post; please feel free to comment on them.

Thanks,
Kytep
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This Demonstrates the difference

Deck 1

2 Ghitu Encampment
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Graven Cairns
4 Sulfurous Springs
9 Mountain
4 Figure of Destiny
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Outlander
4 Blightning
4 Flame Javelin
4 Incinerate
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Terror


Deck 2

4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Jund Hackblade
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Rip-Clan Crasher
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Violent Outburst
4 Incinerate
4 Shock
1 Hurly-Burly
1 Colossal Might

4 Karplusan Forest
4 Fire-Lit Thicket
4 Forest
10 Mountain

No cards in your deck are of the quality of figure of destiny, seige gang commander, volcanic fall out your equivelant hurly burly demonstrates the difference clearly.

This is what you lose for the extra focus, you are sacraficing quality for speed. You want focus but all cards are not created equal and you are playing alot less of the cream cards. The good thing with running lots of these is they are able to win games by themselves, Fod, seige gang commander and volcanic fallout are all very good at this. Hurly burly is not, nor is tattermunge maniac, these are team players.

The blightning deck offers a better balance of speed and quality, although it is entirely possible that pure speed is better I am in no position to comment on if it is or not that as I have not tested either deck.
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Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're both in agreement that the RG deck is sacrificing (at least longer-term) card quality for speed. I think the question though is: Which will be more important in the new meta - trying to kill 2 - 3 turns sooner, or playing to the mid-game by making the opponent discard (Blightning), using a 5-cost creature which works best after the next untap (SGC), and a creature which requires a larger mana investment to make it good (Figure)?

As for Hurly-Burly vs. Fallout, while Fallout obviously can work better at killing your opponent's creatures, I think the bigger question is: Which more consistently provides a better post-spell board situation, when it matters the most (an open question to me)?

It seems to me that, mostly, Fallout-types of spells are best vs. 1-toughness creatures (i.e., tokens, Scions), which HB can also take care of. The key difference is, HB (usually) also leaves your 2-toughness creatures on the board. So, after my opponent casts a Spectral Procession, I like to HB, then attack with my Rip-Clan Clashers, Jund Hackblades, and even Maniacs.

It seems to me that Fallout is better when: 1) Your opponent's creatures are x/2's; 2) Your creatures are x/3's (or better); 3) Your opponent is packing counters; and/or 4) Instant-speed is important.

Hurly-Burly seems better when: 1) Your opponent's creatures are x/1's and/or fly when yours walk and vice-versa; 2) Your creatures are x/2's; 3) Opponent is not packing counters; and/or 4) Instant-speed is not as important.

I believe this still gives HB quite a bit of room in the meta, especially vs. RW Cruise, (perhaps) Faeries, and (MAYbe, but probably not) BW Tokens.

Thanks,
Kytep
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallout is uncounterable damage (to your opponent) that takes away possible weenie blockers at eot.

Hurly Burly is...not.
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zturchan



Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also consider that cards like Glorious Anthem totally kill any hopes of using Hurly-Burly.
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center
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 440

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOU CAN'T CALL YOUR DECK TURBO IF IT DOESN'T RUN HOWLING MINE.
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alvaro202



Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are certain cards to consider when making a deck. One card in particular is burrington forge tender. Without much thought, you can see that a burrington in play in game 1 will be auto lose. Your deck wont be able to remove it. You also have no way of getting around glorious anthem, you should use some form of enchant removal (yes possibly naturalize in sideboard) just to deal with that, especially if you are using hurly burly for field wipes.

This decks matchup against Tier 1 aggro decks, like WW kithkin is less than 10% chance to win in game 1. While kithkin is not a huge part of the metagame, its fairly easy to say that you also have a bad matchup against other burn / aggro decks (as your cards fall to volcanic fallout) and while you may be able to put enough damage in early game to put down a control deck, your card quality may be insufficient to seal the deal after the opponent plays there 4th land.

So you ask the question about this deck, will it be good in the current metagame, or should I say will it be better than blightning aggro in the current meta game. I have to say that this deck in its current form is worse than both jund blightning, and RB blightning aggro in all matchups other than possibly there own mirrors.

R/G aggro has potential, but as far as standard is looking your going to have to run cards that have more punch to them, and 2/2s with or without haste as 80% of your playable is not going to cut it.
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Kytep



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 187

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alvaro202 wrote:
There are certain cards to consider when making a deck...Without much thought, you can see that a burrington in play in game 1 will be auto lose.


But applying a bit *more* thought (sorry, couldn't resist Wink, one can see that, while BFT can be a pain - especially in Game 1 - it's not quite an "auto loss". I've beaten Game 1 BFT's several times; I simply swarm around them. Those 1/1 bodies don't kill my Crashers, Hackblades, Bloodbraids, or Ram-Gangs either, so I can keep swarming 2+ creatures at a time (and Hellsparks have Trample, so they get in at least 4 damage).

Post-side, Everlasting Torment is huge vs. BFT: They effectively no longer have the sac ability, and when they block (or even if I cast Hurly-Burly), they DIE. Torment effectively turns all opposing BFT's into vanilla 1/1's


alvaro202 wrote:
You also have no way of getting around glorious anthem, you should use some form of enchant removal (yes possibly naturalize in sideboard) just to deal with that, especially if you are using hurly burly for field wipes.


Naturalize (or equivalent) may be a good idea, but I can often out-race Anthems, which they must take a full turn to cast while probably not doing anything else. Remember, my deck kills in 4 - 5 turns typically. Also, Everlasting Torment can shine here as well, whittling their forces down over a couple of turns.

alvaro202 wrote:
This decks matchup against Tier 1 aggro decks, like WW kithkin is less than 10% chance to win in game 1. While kithkin is not a huge part of the metagame, its fairly easy to say that you also have a bad matchup against other burn / aggro decks (as your cards fall to volcanic fallout)


Yes, I am finding that I tend to have issues with opposing aggro decks, which is making me question whether my extra speed is really worth the loss of mid- (or even early-) game answers. My bears - while haste is great - get stopped by a lot; they work well vs. control, but once an opponent puts a blocker or two out, I suddenly need more removal and/or better creatures.

alvaro202 wrote:
while you may be able to put enough damage in early game to put down a control deck, your card quality may be insufficient to seal the deal after the opponent plays there 4th land.


Control decks are virtually never a problem. Playing around Wrath is VERY easy vs. a (nearly) creatureless deck. I hit them so fast that they have to Wrath ASAP, even if I only have 2 creatures out. Then I just drop 1 or 2 more (which almost always have haste) and keep coming. I can also Incinerate them out if I need to.

alvaro202 wrote:
So you ask the question about this deck, will it be good in the current metagame, or should I say will it be better than blightning aggro in the current meta game. I have to say that this deck in its current form is worse than both jund blightning, and RB blightning aggro in all matchups other than possibly there own mirrors.

R/G aggro has potential, but as far as standard is looking your going to have to run cards that have more punch to them, and 2/2s with or without haste as 80% of your playable is not going to cut it.


I am coming to this conclusion as well. My deck seems to give up a lot vs. opposing aggro decks to gain a some speed vs. control, but I'm not so sure that the extra speed makes all that much difference compared to Jund Blightning. It will be interesting to see if a RG version does well in post-ARB T2, but I now doubt that a deck very similar to mine will be it.

Oh, well, back to the drawing board (which is the fun part for me!). Thanks to all for your comments! (Please continue to provide more if you wish!)

Kytep
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P_P4E



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not play more 1 drop guys? Obviously they are less good with the cascading, but they'd make you faster in general. I was thinking Wild Nactl mostly, but Mogg fanatic is also good.
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cdubs



Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:49 pm    Post subject: i like your deck alot Reply with quote

I was testing the deck online and it seems really fast. My only concern is volcanic fallout. Is there an answer to this card for you? I was thinking Sarkhan Vol but that would never work. He also works as a replacement of threaten in board though. I also replaced tattermunge with figures because figure is obv > tattermunge and allows the somewhat the same explosive start with hackblade. The one random burly in the main seems unneeded and I moved it into the board for another might. I like RG aggro decks like this and cascade is insane it. Thanks for the list. I will test this and try to find a solution to the fallout problem.
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rdeg87



Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your playin so much basic land you need to be playing 4 Borderposts. They're great fixing as well as providing another gold card so your turn 2 Hackblade has haste
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the point of borderposts? Even if you play it turn one, you're still only at 2 mana turn 2. Not worth the slots even in Limited I would say.
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marten2



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are woried about your bears being too small against other aggro decks, you could add some boartusk lieges. I would add two of them in the main instead of your one-offs and two in the side at the least
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