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Pissed off at WotC?


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Other - Magic

Pissed off?
Don't Care.
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
Yes.
61%
 61%  [ 11 ]
No.
27%
 27%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 18

Author Message
SaTiVa
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 289

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Pissed off at WotC? Reply with quote

Here are my suggestions to you:

- Buy from very localized dealers who happen to have random singles based on what people bring in oppesed to massive online sites who open mass amounts of wizards product to change the singles market.

- Organize cardpool so that your play group is buying less, but everyone still gets to play a competitive wide variety of decks.

- Get your information from 3rd party magic media vs. checking wizards.com to help sink some of their web traffic.

- And of course play @ magic-league or err i mean pink pony-league

Any more you can think of? Reply with them or just flame me. I stole parts of this from another fourm but thought I would share.
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Bushviper



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this sounds a bit grown-up, but we could just accept the changes we have had to make and continue on as normal. I know it sounds crazy, but I am a fan of the science-fiction.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah that's a good idea, let's screw with WOTC because they want us to give them money to play a game they created.
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NahHolmes wrote:
Yeah that's a good idea, let's screw with WOTC because they want us to give them money to play a game they created.


While I'm not going to comment on the maturity of this thread, you need to stop trolling. And yes, it is trolling when you mention again and again the same stupid point that's already been refuted. You need to explain why you think Wotc is losing a significant amount of money from M-L. Some people have given good arguments as to how Wotc might actually gain money from them. In short, shut up, you have no idea what you're talking about, you are probably one of those people who thinks that people who file share should be put in jail for theft.
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Bushviper



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my defence i only argued that whatever your opinion on the morality or legality of the WOTC incident, the problems can be or already have been fixed and we should just put this whole thing behind us.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've clearly never read any of crazes posts then:)
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Bushviper



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze makes a good point here and there.
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

magic_cards wrote:
this is totally ridiculous. we should punish a company for protecting their copyright? the issue is not whether m-l is/was beneficial to wizards of the coast at all. the fact is, mws, and appr are copyright infringement, and promoting tournaments on these applications is illegal. wizards is not going to let this fly anymore.


This is actually one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

On the first issue of whether the benefits matter. The entire philosophy of copyright law is that it exists for the (usually financial) benefit of the person who holds the copyright. This is why in any discourse about copyright infringement (like when we're talking about file sharing) the argument usually is, "Napster is bad because we're losing profits". Copyright is different from other rights. Someone can't just take away my right to life or free speech because they think it might be for my own benefit - copyright is different in that sense.

If you think people have an absolute right of copyright, how do you feel about fair use, public domain, and all of the other exceptions?

Quote:

if someone steals money from a bank every week, and keeps dropping money on your front lawn accidentally that you pick up, it is your duty to do something about it even though you are profiting from it. it does not matter if m-l leads to additional revenue for wizards. additionally, this case extends far past the minimal profit wizards could lose or gain as the result; it is a warning to everyone else who tries to violate wizards's copyright.


This is so obviously disanalogous I don't even know where to start. If you steal money from the bank and GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE then the bank is not profiting from that. If you steal money from the bank, invest it, and give them back ten times what you stole from them, that might be a better analogy, but we would never allow that because of the near-certainty that a person stealing from the bank is not going to give it back, and because physical property and intellectual property aren't even the same.

Also I think this is a question of proportionality. If a person steals a dollar from the bank and then the bank responds by destroying his entire life then we would err on the side of the person stealing, not the bank. Essentially shutting down an entire site that barely puts a dent in their profits (AT MOST, it might even help them) is totally not a fair and proportional response.

Quote:

yes, wizards can grant m-l, mws, and appr permission to use its copyrighted text and pictures, but this would send a horrible message that anyone can abuse their products for however they choose. wizards makes the cards, and we should be paying them for the cards. and m-l is a commercial site, so its use of copyrighted materials is especially bad, as it leads to increased profits.


Here is where you're frothing out the mouth. First of all, what is the "horrible message" being sent? How is anyone "abusing" their products? What abuse is going on? You haven't explained nearly any of the arguments you've made here. You say "we should be paying wizards for the cards", yet you said earlier that it doesn't matter whether M-L generates revenue for them, and that copyright was somehow a much more important rights claim than that. What are you arguing exactly?

You also say:

Quote:
and m-l is a commercial site, so its use of copyrighted materials is especially bad, as it leads to increased profits.


but in what sense in M-L a commercial site? Does koen profit from the ads that no one clicks on? That's the only way I could imagine that being true.

Quote:
to allow them to continue to exist is no different from letting the robber continue to steal from the bank.


You're an idiot.
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iKe



Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 530
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a big reason why wotc is pissed is because if you would type "play magic online", "play mtg online" or "Free MTG" etc... on Google, Magic-League is the first result, I would think that they definitely lose money one way or another from that.
I love this place, but I really cannot blame wotc for wanting our activities to stop.
I am only pissed that they decided to do something about it
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if you search for a site that lets you play free mtg on google, you're likely to find one..? Is that your argument?

I searched for magic-league but had no intention of ever paying for magic even if M-L hadn't existed. The game is too expensive anyway.

Most people use M-L to test. Lots of people think there's no reason to bother with competitive magic, buying cards etc if you haven't tested with them first. Why do you think there are tourney reports regularly published on this site, forum topics about Modo drafts that people have done, people obviously still play it competitively and still buy cards despite M-L. This is a silly argument.
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KevinJonas



Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i estimate that personally i would have spent at least 2k more on real life/modo cards if i had not played on m-l... it's probably closer to 3k of 4k.

wiley, you need to calm down
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theres nothing stopping you from using ml to test just that you cant play in minis which are a joke anyway, so you can just find someone whos good and play them on mws which will help you get better faster or u can beat noobs which doesnt help you get better, you guys can be mad all u want but wotc needs to protect its business, so stop whining
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KevinJonas wrote:
i estimate that personally i would have spent at least 2k more on real life/modo cards if i had not played on m-l... it's probably closer to 3k of 4k.

wiley, you need to calm down


I'm being perfectly calm.

People need to stop saying "wotc needs to protect its profits" and then not substantiating why it would even happen that wotc would lose money. The closest we get is anecdotal evidence from someone who says he would have spent "2000 dollars more" in a world without M-L. Never mind that still you haven't given a reason why you would have spent more money (seriously - spending more money buying what? Singles which wotc doesn't profit from? What exactly?)

I think that wotc probably makes less money because of netdraft (negligibly less but I'll accept that still), but remember that they aren't banning the use of netdraft, so it's a moot point.

gypsy, you can obviously test a lot more and in a more meaningful setting when you have trials and minis to play in.
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iKe



Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 530
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wiley wrote:
So if you search for a site that lets you play free mtg on google, you're likely to find one..? Is that your argument?

I searched for magic-league but had no intention of ever paying for magic even if M-L hadn't existed. The game is too expensive anyway.

Most people use M-L to test. Lots of people think there's no reason to bother with competitive magic, buying cards etc if you haven't tested with them first. Why do you think there are tourney reports regularly published on this site, forum topics about Modo drafts that people have done, people obviously still play it competitively and still buy cards despite M-L. This is a silly argument.


You really are not a very smart person.

If you even type "Play MTG" m-l comes up first not "play mtg free". If someone is just looking for somewhere to play magic IRL he will get sent here first.

Obviously your life revolves around this league and this is why you are blowing up on anyone who says wotc has a small point.
I really do like this place and even if magic online was free I would stay here. But unlike you most probably will, I am not going to kill myself if this site goes down.
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Wiley



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

If you even type "Play MTG" m-l comes up first not "play mtg free". If someone is just looking for somewhere to play magic IRL he will get sent here first.


You wrote:

iKe wrote:
I think a big reason why wotc is pissed is because if you would type "play magic online", "play mtg online" or "Free MTG" etc... on Google, Magic-League is the first result, I would think that they definitely lose money one way or another from that.
I love this place, but I really cannot blame wotc for wanting our activities to stop.


Please learn to read.
Moreover I'm not sure what your point is - are you saying people just won't hear about magic online? Or they won't learn about IRL tournaments? This will just somehow make it past them because they did a google search and M-L came first? M-L isn't nearly as popular as you think dude, just look at the active membership, M-L has a number of active members equal to about 1/10000 of the people who actually play magic.

Other than that you decided to resort to acting like a toddler. Ike, I'm being mature about this and giving well-reasoned arguments, you're blabbing like a toddler making incredibly unclear and moronic arguments, I think I'm winning here.

Quote:
Obviously your life revolves around this league and this is why you are blowing up on anyone who says wotc has a small point.


I spent like a year on hiatus (not even talking about when I was banned but there was that too), no problems at all. Either way this is just not something I have to defend. I'm tired of the idiots saying "omg omg it's just a game" etc, right no one has the right to be pissed off at anything ever, stop being such a bunch of apathetic clueless shitheads. Thanks.
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