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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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 Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: Bant aggro |
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4 noble hierarch
3 birds of paradise
4 manamorphose
4 quirion dryad
1 gaddock teeg
4 wilt leaf cavaliers
4 kitchen finks
4 rhox war monk
3 bant charm
1 loxodon warhammer
4 wilt leaf liege
3 rafiq of the many
1 elspeth, knight errant
6 forest
1 island
2 plains
4 brushland
4 terramorphic expanse
4 seaside citadel
Sideboard:
4 elvish hexhunter
3 scattershot archer
3 condemn
1 brigid, hero of kinsbaile
1 bant charm
3 eyes of the wisent
Started working on this yesterday, I've only been playing again for 3 days after an 8 year break so there's probably stuff like this been posted around that I'm not aware of. I did a quick forum search for 'bant' but didn't see any relevant threads in which to discuss it, just a bant exalted and bant control thread.
I could really use some help thinning the manabase, it seems to be playing out ok with 17 lands, 7 birds and 4 fetchers, but I just don't like playing with 28 producers and only 4 thinners. It's not so bad if the birds start eating removal though.
I could also use a LOT of help with the sideboard. As I said I've only been playing 3 days so no idea what kind of metagame exists, if any stable metagame actually does exist.
The deck is really fun, nothing like eating a blightning and throwing down a pair of 6/6s, or swinging for 10, lifelinked, on turn 3. It's resilient to a lot of burn with all the 4 toughness and persistent beats which is why I haven't really sided against it. Mark of asylum/forge tender are hot though.
However, I'm looking for ways to improve it, especially the manabase, as I said. I'm kind of stretching it to the limit trying to run turn 1 accelerators, 3 colours, minimal taplands to maintain tempo, while keeping the dead draws to a minimum with deck thinners, since the curve isn't too bad.
Yeah, the sideboard is obviously junk. Also, I need to drop a card  |
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ILikeBananas
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'd do this...
-cut manamorphose. You can improve your mana base with some combination of reflecting pools, flooded grove, wooded bastion and mystic gate. Add some painlands too. Basically you'll be packing very few basic lands so you can cut terramorphic expanse. Not sure if you're building budget but the reality of competitive magic is...no $$$ = no decent mana base.
-Cut 1 warhammer. Finks + rhox warmonk is enough life gain to own red. Hammer is a bit too slow vs red anyways, and not to mention they'll usually burn off the creature after equiping so you've invested 6 mana for nothing.
-Cut all the dryads. I'd go with the Jhe infiltrator instead (the GU 2/2 unblockable creature). It's very good with exalted
-Run 4 cryptic commands. If you use the mana base I suggested, casting it is not a problem.
-Run 1 or 2 more Elspeth. It's excellent vs control decks if resolved. It's also excellent vs red. Turn 3 war monk + turn 4 elspeth = very hard for RDW to make a come back.
-I'm not convinced you need 3 BoP along with Noble Hierach. One of the weakness of bant decks is Wrath of God. having a creature as mana accelerator increases your risk to this weakness.
-Path of exile is so good, you must find room for 4 copies of it.
-as for SB, you need some anti air to fight fae and scattershot archer seems decent. I'd go with wispmare over elvish hexhunter for enchant removal.
-Control is not afraid of eyes of the wisent anymore. The control deck of choice in this meta is no longer based on counters. They pack 8 counters at most. |
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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| ILikeBananas wrote: | I'd do this...
-cut manamorphose. You can improve your mana base with some combination of reflecting pools, flooded grove, wooded bastion and mystic gate. Add some painlands too. Basically you'll be packing very few basic lands so you can cut terramorphic expanse. Not sure if you're building budget but the reality of competitive magic is...no $$$ = no decent mana base.
-Cut 1 warhammer. Finks + rhox warmonk is enough life gain to own red. Hammer is a bit too slow vs red anyways, and not to mention they'll usually burn off the creature after equiping so you've invested 6 mana for nothing.
-Cut all the dryads. I'd go with the Jhe infiltrator instead (the GU 2/2 unblockable creature). It's very good with exalted
-Run 4 cryptic commands. If you use the mana base I suggested, casting it is not a problem.
-Run 1 or 2 more Elspeth. It's excellent vs control decks if resolved. It's also excellent vs red. Turn 3 war monk + turn 4 elspeth = very hard for RDW to make a come back.
-I'm not convinced you need 3 BoP along with Noble Hierach. One of the weakness of bant decks is Wrath of God. having a creature as mana accelerator increases your risk to this weakness.
-Path of exile is so good, you must find room for 4 copies of it.
-as for SB, you need some anti air to fight fae and scattershot archer seems decent. I'd go with wispmare over elvish hexhunter for enchant removal.
-Control is not afraid of eyes of the wisent anymore. The control deck of choice in this meta is no longer based on counters. They pack 8 counters at most. |
Hmm I'm not sure I agree about cutting terramorphics or manamorphose. 28 mana producers is a lot of dead draws later on, and manamorphose is just 'cycling: 0'. It's not there for manafixing, although that part doesn't hurt.
The warhammer is gone already although it was there for the trample not the lifelink. The infiltrators seem like a good solution. My first 3 game losses with the deck were all with the opponent at 1 life and me unable to squeeze another point through. The first time I lost from 32-1 up, so they seem like a pretty good option vs decks that can lock up the board with blockers.
I generally don't have any trouble at all beating down blockers, the issue is with things like bitterblossom, regeneration, or in one case, a recurring graveyard fetch (reveillark, lord of the undead, gravedigger), keeping the blockers in place. Even the turn2 wooly thoctar often can't trade or race, since I can be swinging with a 5/6 lifelinked double striker while the thoctar still has summoning sickness. I outraced a turn4 progenitus, turn5 charnelhoard wurm (the wurm got bant charmed). So yeah, not afraid to engage, just an issue when the guys I beat up stay on the board anyway, since I lack evasion. The infiltrator is appealing, I'll give it a try.
The dryads are huge. They're basically as big as my 3mana guys, only more vulnerable to burn, but I will try switching them out.
I'm really not convinced about the control options, path to exile, or cryptic especially. Path I can justify, more removal helps, but cryptic is a stretch. When I could be dropping a liege to pump my finks to 5/4, I should be swinging for 3 and holding mana? The idea is to do 20 damage by turn 4-5, not build up 1uuu to counter a threat on those turns. That would be a different deck entirely I think. I've got paths in the s/b now though, and would consider maindecking them.
Definitely agree about elspeth. I'll figure something out, hate to end up with a hand full of elspeth and rafiq, but it might be nice to actually see her every now and then.
I also agree that the bop increase my vulnerability to wrath, but they also increase the wrath players chances of being dead before he gets the mana for wrath. I'm gonna stick with them I think.
Also agree about the scattershot, he is s/b now.
The wispmare is definitely better than the hexhunter, although I'm not sure what I would side out for it. I'm also not sure if there may be better options still. There's a LOT of anti aggro enchants running around in sideboards it seems, and any deck with g/w should be able to find some impressive solutions to that. Just not sure what they are. Possibly aura of silence or tempest light?
Eyes of the wisent was a very bad call I agree  I'm thinking possibly more gaddock teegs there. |
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Vedrfolner
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2148
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Terramorphics or Panoramas will slow you down in precisely the turns you want to play key spells. You can't afford to lose the tempo. You need to play a mana base that never stops you from playing the best threat in your hand. 7-8 cip tapped lands are a maximum, and you should play 24 lands so that the chance of drawing the wrong mana (too much cip tapped, wrong colours, too few) is minimized.
That mana base and a '3cc beast turn 2' strategy could be difficult to pull off. The chance of drawing two accelerators (which could be the difference between a win and a loss) is high, and remember that for the acceleration to be worth it, you will need 1xbird/druid + at least 1xFinks/Monk + at least 1xForest/Brushland and 1xother land except Expanse/Citadel out of 8 cards.
Do the math, and you will find out that the odds are in your disfavour.
I think you would be better off skipping the 1-drops and go with more 2-drops instead.
4 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Rafiq of the Many (doubles aren't a problem)
2 Shield of the Oversoul
4 Bant Charm
4 Negate (to counter Wrath, Firespout or other key spells)
3 Path to Exile
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Meadow
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Mystic Gate
2 Flooded Grove
2 Wooded Bastion
3 Brushland
2 Adarkar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
There may be other Conflux cards that could fit into here, but I haven't got the entire set memorized. |
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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Vedrfolner wrote: | Terramorphics or Panoramas will slow you down in precisely the turns you want to play key spells. You can't afford to lose the tempo. You need to play a mana base that never stops you from playing the best threat in your hand. 7-8 cip tapped lands are a maximum, and you should play 24 lands so that the chance of drawing the wrong mana (too much cip tapped, wrong colours, too few) is minimized.
That mana base and a '3cc beast turn 2' strategy could be difficult to pull off. The chance of drawing two accelerators (which could be the difference between a win and a loss) is high, and remember that for the acceleration to be worth it, you will need 1xbird/druid + at least 1xFinks/Monk + at least 1xForest/Brushland and 1xother land except Expanse/Citadel out of 8 cards.
Do the math, and you will find out that the odds are in your disfavour.
I think you would be better off skipping the 1-drops and go with more 2-drops instead.
4 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Rafiq of the Many (doubles aren't a problem)
2 Shield of the Oversoul
4 Bant Charm
4 Negate (to counter Wrath, Firespout or other key spells)
3 Path to Exile
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Meadow
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Mystic Gate
2 Flooded Grove
2 Wooded Bastion
3 Brushland
2 Adarkar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
There may be other Conflux cards that could fit into here, but I haven't got the entire set memorized. |
Err... I wrote a really long post, but it could be summed up like this:
I appreciate the advice on the manabase, but I don't get color screwed. I just want to cut down on the dead draws if the game goes long, something that I don't think dropping the terramorphics would help with. Especially not for another 4 taplands. |
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Insom
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| I never thought manamorphose's benefit of "cutting the deck size" made up for the drawback of hiding the card that should be in your hand from you. It just seemed like every game I played with manamorphose I would have rather just started out with the land or mana accelerator in my hand instead of having to wait until turn two to see what it was. Anyway, cryptic is the best card in T2, I would play it. I like the new idea of playing around liege but if that doesn't work for you you can always fall back on the proven shorecrasher mimic alternative. |
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Vedrfolner
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2148
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Thanik wrote: | | Vedrfolner wrote: | Terramorphics or Panoramas will slow you down in precisely the turns you want to play key spells. You can't afford to lose the tempo. You need to play a mana base that never stops you from playing the best threat in your hand. 7-8 cip tapped lands are a maximum, and you should play 24 lands so that the chance of drawing the wrong mana (too much cip tapped, wrong colours, too few) is minimized.
That mana base and a '3cc beast turn 2' strategy could be difficult to pull off. The chance of drawing two accelerators (which could be the difference between a win and a loss) is high, and remember that for the acceleration to be worth it, you will need 1xbird/druid + at least 1xFinks/Monk + at least 1xForest/Brushland and 1xother land except Expanse/Citadel out of 8 cards.
Do the math, and you will find out that the odds are in your disfavour.
I think you would be better off skipping the 1-drops and go with more 2-drops instead.
4 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Rafiq of the Many (doubles aren't a problem)
2 Shield of the Oversoul
4 Bant Charm
4 Negate (to counter Wrath, Firespout or other key spells)
3 Path to Exile
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Meadow
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Mystic Gate
2 Flooded Grove
2 Wooded Bastion
3 Brushland
2 Adarkar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
There may be other Conflux cards that could fit into here, but I haven't got the entire set memorized. |
Err... I wrote a really long post, but it could be summed up like this:
I appreciate the advice on the manabase, but I don't get color screwed. I just want to cut down on the dead draws if the game goes long, something that I don't think dropping the terramorphics would help with. Especially not for another 4 taplands. |
MY really long post told you why you get those dead draws in the first place...
Here are the dead draws:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Manamorphose
4 Quirion Dryad
21 lands
= 36
so away with those, replace with 12 business spells and 24 lands... Easy peasy! |
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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Vedrfolner wrote: |
Here are the dead draws:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Manamorphose
4 Quirion Dryad
21 lands
= 36
so away with those, replace with 12 business spells and 24 lands... Easy peasy! |
21 lands and 7 birds = 28 manasources.
4 fetch lands cuts it back a bit. Why would I cut all my acceleration to pad my deck? Because it's safe from creature removal? No one should ever play birds?
I'm not really following you. What do you think switching out free cyclers and birds/druids will do to help the manabase? What do you think quirion dryad does (although I'm trying out the infiltrators over him atm)?
Oh and yeah, the liege is awesome. I've had some games where a pair of lieges stuck. A 7/8 and a pair of 6/6s down early is good times. Could be on the table as early as turn 4, earlier if the other guy plays discard. They're so good I would consider dropping blue entirely to make that happen more often, but rafiq is brutal too  |
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Insom
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| The naya deck that is seeing a lot of play recently in both T2 and extended might better fit what you are looking for. |
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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Insom wrote: | | The naya deck that is seeing a lot of play recently in both T2 and extended might better fit what you are looking for. |
It's a fair bit slower, but if they can chump to protect a planeswalker for a couple turns they do ok, since they have access to brutal planeswalkers in red. I just don't like the slower beats.
If your god draw can't deal fatal damage before your opponent gets 2ww on the table, you're not really playing aggro. That's why the naya deck has a better mid game with stuff like realm razer.
With 7 birds, there's a good chance of having either birds of noble in your opening hand. With 12 3/x for 3 creatures, there's a good chance of having 1 or 2 by turn 2. With 4 lieges and 3 rafiq, there's a good chance of having 1 by turn 3. The only thing slowing me down is the 8 taplands and fetchlands, or I'd be swinging with 5/6s on turn 3 pretty often. That's with either vigilance, lifelink, or persistence/lifegain to both maintain control of the board and prevent racing, and occasionally double strike to really push the point. Turn 2 thoctar can't race, can't trade, can't do much but hope for the planeswalker and chumpblock. Realm razer is a dead draw when they will never have board control in the first place.
At this point though I'm considering cutting it to g/w, ditching rafiq for a planeswalker in those colors and switching bant charms for path to exile. I didn't like the infiltrators, they don't dominate the board in the same way as the other creatures, which opened up possibilities for other aggro decks to get in the game. So the only things keeping me in blue are really bant charm and rafiq, both of which can be substituted in g/w. The war monks are just another bear, troll ascetic springs to mind as a replacement, although volcanic fallout might make that a bad idea. Rafiq is vulnerable to too much red removal for a 4cc anyway, but losing bant charm would hurt. Going to have a think about it. It would let me get a few double green or double white spells in too.
Last edited by Thanik on Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:01 pm; edited 11 times in total |
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Vedrfolner
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2148
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanik wrote: | | Vedrfolner wrote: |
Here are the dead draws:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Manamorphose
4 Quirion Dryad
21 lands
= 36
so away with those, replace with 12 business spells and 24 lands... Easy peasy! |
21 lands and 7 birds = 28 manasources.
4 fetch lands cuts it back a bit. Why would I cut all my acceleration to pad my deck? Because it's safe from creature removal? No one should ever play birds?
I'm not really following you. What do you think switching out free cyclers and birds/druids will do to help the manabase? What do you think quirion dryad does (although I'm trying out the infiltrators over him atm)?
Oh and yeah, the liege is awesome. I've had some games where a pair of lieges stuck. A 7/8 and a pair of 6/6s down early is good times. Could be on the table as early as turn 4, earlier if the other guy plays discard. They're so good I would consider dropping blue entirely to make that happen more often, but rafiq is brutal too |
4 Terramorphic Expanse and 4 Seaside Citadel = 8 cip tapped lands. 4 Seaside Citadel + 4 Vivid lands = 8 cip tapped lands. The difference is that the latter gives you all the colours you need, while the former does not. The land thinning is irrelevant in a deck trying to win by turn 5.
Regarding overextending and dropping your entire hand in order to win that early - it is like a blind all-in bet in poker. It will burn you more often than not, and it is not a very good strategy for UWG (fits mono-coloured decks better, normally). Besides, since you have 8 4cc spells and 15 3cc spells, you will probably not play more than one spell a turn that often - so it will be hard to even be that aggressive to begin with.
The only thing your deck is designed to do is to drop Cavaliers, Finks and Monks one turn earlier than they normally would be. To do that, you trade threat/answer diversity and numbers, curve and card power for a speed boost that may or may not be relevant, depending on if the opponent can deal with the threat or not. If he can (terror, shriekmaw, deathmark, unmake, flame javelin, sower of temptation, wrath of god, condemn, bitterblossom, spectral procession, stillmoon cavalier etc), the tempo gain is less relevant.
It is not a good idea to play manamorphose because you have less good cards in your deck, and it is an extremely poor topdeck as well.
Quirion Dryad is not a good card. On its own it is a 1/1, and at the very best (in Standard) it is a big green creature with no evasion or protection at a stage of the game where you could as well play an equally big creature with protection and evasion instead.
Look, I am not slamming your deck idea here. GW beatdown is an ok deck, and I have built several similar decks myself with some success. Birds>Troll Ascetic > Moldervine Cloak >remand ftw (GU a/c). It is just that I (and others) have explained to you why you are experiencing problems with not drawing business spells.
... it is just math!
You are not drawing enough threats and answers because your deck has too few of them. It is as simple as that. |
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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Vedrfolner wrote: | | Thanik wrote: | | Vedrfolner wrote: |
Here are the dead draws:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Manamorphose
4 Quirion Dryad
21 lands
= 36
so away with those, replace with 12 business spells and 24 lands... Easy peasy! |
21 lands and 7 birds = 28 manasources.
4 fetch lands cuts it back a bit. Why would I cut all my acceleration to pad my deck? Because it's safe from creature removal? No one should ever play birds?
I'm not really following you. What do you think switching out free cyclers and birds/druids will do to help the manabase? What do you think quirion dryad does (although I'm trying out the infiltrators over him atm)?
Oh and yeah, the liege is awesome. I've had some games where a pair of lieges stuck. A 7/8 and a pair of 6/6s down early is good times. Could be on the table as early as turn 4, earlier if the other guy plays discard. They're so good I would consider dropping blue entirely to make that happen more often, but rafiq is brutal too |
4 Terramorphic Expanse and 4 Seaside Citadel = 8 cip tapped lands. 4 Seaside Citadel + 4 Vivid lands = 8 cip tapped lands. The difference is that the latter gives you all the colours you need, while the former does not. The land thinning is irrelevant in a deck trying to win by turn 5.
Regarding overextending and dropping your entire hand in order to win that early - it is like a blind all-in bet in poker. It will burn you more often than not, and it is not a very good strategy for UWG (fits mono-coloured decks better, normally). Besides, since you have 8 4cc spells and 15 3cc spells, you will probably not play more than one spell a turn that often - so it will be hard to even be that aggressive to begin with.
The only thing your deck is designed to do is to drop Cavaliers, Finks and Monks one turn earlier than they normally would be. To do that, you trade threat/answer diversity and numbers, curve and card power for a speed boost that may or may not be relevant, depending on if the opponent can deal with the threat or not. If he can (terror, shriekmaw, deathmark, unmake, flame javelin, sower of temptation, wrath of god, condemn, bitterblossom, spectral procession, stillmoon cavalier etc), the tempo gain is less relevant.
It is not a good idea to play manamorphose because you have less good cards in your deck, and it is an extremely poor topdeck as well.
Quirion Dryad is not a good card. On its own it is a 1/1, and at the very best (in Standard) it is a big green creature with no evasion or protection at a stage of the game where you could as well play an equally big creature with protection and evasion instead.
Look, I am not slamming your deck idea here. GW beatdown is an ok deck, and I have built several similar decks myself with some success. Birds>Troll Ascetic > Moldervine Cloak >remand ftw (GU a/c). It is just that I (and others) have explained to you why you are experiencing problems with not drawing business spells.
... it is just math!
You are not drawing enough threats and answers because your deck has too few of them. It is as simple as that. |
The manamorphose comments are just tired and old by now, the only drawback the card has is it's a bad topdeck unless you dropped finks or monks early on and could care less about 2 points of the dreaded manaburn. It's still free cycling, with the price of paying 2 life if you don't play a spell that turn. Why not play a 64 card deck so you can get some extra threats in?
You're still saying birds are bad in 3 color aggro, you're still saying a tiny chance at 2 life, and and a hand size increased by 1 sometimes, is important enough to play 4 more cards in your deck, and neither of those makes any sense to me. Sorry man, I just think we have really different outlooks on how aggro should play out, and I don't know that we are gonna reach any agreement there.
I definitely agree with one thing you said though. The land thinning is irrelevant indeed when you're trying to win by turn 4-6. I should have thought about that, I'll try switching those terramorphics for some ziggurats I think. Thankyou! |
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Vedrfolner
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2148
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Get someone to play "my" Bant aggro deck, then, for about 10 games, and see which performs best.
You need 1 bird/hierarch, 1 Monk/Finks/Cavalier as well as 2 lands giving two colours in your opening hand. Birds and no 3-drop is a no-keep. No birds/hierarch and no Dryad/Teeg is a no-keep. Birds+monk and no forests/brushland or two forests is a no-keep. Then the really bad draws come on top... it adds up, doesn't it?
The Mimic version needs 2 lands which are not both pools or both filters or both cip tapped, and one of 11 2-drops and it's a keeper.
As a rule, having more than 2 non-token creatures in play at a time is overextending, aggro or no. So your suggested play of dropping a Liege in order to boost _several_ other creatures instead of holding open mana for a Cryptic Command is just poor play unless you win that turn because of the boost. Actually, even then it is risky if he holds mana open. |
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Thanik
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Vedrfolner wrote: | Get someone to play "my" Bant aggro deck, then, for about 10 games, and see which performs best.
You need 1 bird/hierarch, 1 Monk/Finks/Cavalier as well as 2 lands giving two colours in your opening hand. Birds and no 3-drop is a no-keep. No birds/hierarch and no Dryad/Teeg is a no-keep. Birds+monk and no forests/brushland or two forests is a no-keep. Then the really bad draws come on top... it adds up, doesn't it?
The Mimic version needs 2 lands which are not both pools or both filters or both cip tapped, and one of 11 2-drops and it's a keeper.
As a rule, having more than 2 non-token creatures in play at a time is overextending, aggro or no. So your suggested play of dropping a Liege in order to boost _several_ other creatures instead of holding open mana for a Cryptic Command is just poor play unless you win that turn because of the boost. Actually, even then it is risky if he holds mana open. |
No birds/hierarch and no dryad/teeg means if I don't get 1 of 12 cards in the deck, it's not a keeper. Except that you're telling me to drop birds and just play it out slower anyway, which is exactly what I do when I don't get birds..... The funny part is that you're telling me the mimic needs 1 of 11 two drops. Is there a better chance of drawing 1 of 11 cards in your deck, or 1 of 12?
Nor do I have trouble getting the colors I need. The lowest number of mana producers I have in the deck is blue. There's 20 cards in the deck that can generate blue mana. That's the lowest. There's 10 cards in the deck that require 1 blue mana each.
Neither do I need to drop a liege to boost several other creatures. Having a 5/6, or even a 5/4, and a 4/4 on the board on turn 3 is usually pretty sufficient dude. The liege is good beats by himself, that's the point. If I don't draw birds? I have the 5/6 and the 4/4 on the board on turn 4 instead. Not a huge blow. Rafiq instead of liege? Sure, now it's just a 3/4 and a 3/3, but one of them is HUGE on attack. No liege, no hierarch, no birds, AND no rafiq? Sure, I'll just drop 3/4 creatures for 3, or finks, are they bad?
When I'm dumping 3-4 creatures, it's vs aggro. Red just doesn't have the removal to deal with 12 x/4 creatures and 4 finks, along with having to burn dryads and rafiqs. Twice now I've been blightninged while holding a pair of lieges, should I put them in the GY to avoid overextending?
I'm not gonna degenerate into an argument with you. You're talking about dumping my whole hand and other things that I just don't need to do. Insinuating that I would do so vs decks that may be packing mass removal that can actually take down my creatures is basically just being insulting.
If having 2 early creatures on the board is what you call overextended, stick to control. That's all I have to say, obviously we aren't going to agree about much. Not responding to any further posts, since it's clearly just going to be an argument. I'll continue tweaking it, but I'm pretty happy with how the concept performs overall. Thankyou for offering your help anyway.
Truthfully, I know you're trying to help me out, I just think we are talking about two decks that would perform very differently. I was really just looking for a little help with the sideboard, and with thinning the manabase, something you kindly pointed out is probably not necessary. |
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Insom
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quirion dryad seems kind of weak, especially if you draw it late. Would wake thrasher be better? |
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