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"US used napalm-like gas in Fallujah on civilians"


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urza^pl



Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They prolly used it, don't forget ther're #1 terrorist. Sorry guys you dunno where you're living Sad
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Andromedea



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 411

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm living in nj
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Koen
Administrator


Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
US Criticized for Use of Phosphorus in Fallujah Raids
By Andrew Buncombe
The Independent UK

The 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons bans the use of weapons such as napalm and white phosphorus against civilian - but not military - targets. The US did not sign the treaty and has continued to use white phosphorus and an updated version of napalm, called Mark 77 firebombs, which use kerosene rather than petrol. A senior US commander previously has confirmed that 510lb napalm bombs had been used in Iraq and said that "the generals love napalm. It has a big psychological effect."

John Pike, director of the Washington-based military studies group GlobalSecurity.Org, said the smoke caused by the bombs could confuse or blind the enemy or mark a target. "If it hits your clothes it will burn your clothes and if it hits your skin it will just keep on burning," he said.


The Independent

I think the documentary footage shows that white phosphorus was used. For me, the only question is how careful the military was to prevent white phosphorus taking on civilians. Seeing how the US military is under pressure to keep their own casualties at a minimum, seeing how Fallujah was unreachable for journalists because of the heavy fights there at the time and seeing how important Fallujah was to prove the US was in control, I think there's a good chance they resorted to indiscriminate usage of white phosphorus.

This is obviously very wrong.
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Trotsky1



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TJtrooper

The reason why, I did not belive I would have to explain this but it seems I once again I must. I will state the obvious.

If you Ignore any such allegations made against you and they are NOT taken seriously, what happens when something really does happen. Nothing because the claim will be ignored, hence all claims of this nature MUST be taken seriously. (once evidence is provided)

Your example was flawed, if you accused me of stacking my deck, I would only be banned once the allegation was proven, not prior. And what would be the point of making a complaint at all, if it was just going to be dismissed, as untrue. On what is fundementaily a racial basis, if they have solid evidence then any claim of this nature should be taken seriously and looked into further.

@doitfaster

being burnt to death by naplalm and such weapons is a gruesome way to die. These people whom died to these napalm attacks are as innocent, as your own mother and father. If you do not take precautions too protect the innocent, then you have become as bad as the terroists themselves.
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CloudRisen



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koen wrote:
Quote:
US Criticized for Use of Phosphorus in Fallujah Raids
By Andrew Buncombe
The Independent UK

The 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons bans the use of weapons such as napalm and white phosphorus against civilian - but not military - targets. The US did not sign the treaty and has continued to use white phosphorus and an updated version of napalm, called Mark 77 firebombs, which use kerosene rather than petrol. A senior US commander previously has confirmed that 510lb napalm bombs had been used in Iraq and said that "the generals love napalm. It has a big psychological effect."

John Pike, director of the Washington-based military studies group GlobalSecurity.Org, said the smoke caused by the bombs could confuse or blind the enemy or mark a target. "If it hits your clothes it will burn your clothes and if it hits your skin it will just keep on burning," he said.


The Independent

I think the documentary footage shows that white phosphorus was used. For me, the only question is how careful the military was to prevent white phosphorus taking on civilians. Seeing how the US military is under pressure to keep their own casualties at a minimum, seeing how Fallujah was unreachable for journalists because of the heavy fights there at the time and seeing how important Fallujah was to prove the US was in control, I think there's a good chance they resorted to indiscriminate usage of white phosphorus.

This is obviously very wrong.


The use of Phosphorus as a lighting tool shouldnt seem to odd for someone who knows as much as you koen. What also shouldnt seem odd is the fact that terrorist armies fight with women in children near around them or even as shields. That is there main defense against a superior army. To assume that all of a sudden US army troops just started Napalming random civilians is a poor way too look at something. And it really does show your european "hate america when there not currently saving us from a war we got ourselves into but cant win" attitude.
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Vancer



Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: Ridiculous Reply with quote

This is absolutely ridiculous. White Phosphorus or not, death is death. Can you imagine a battalion of Ceasar's Army coming under investigation for using spears instead or swords? or perhaps even setting fire to a village? War is war. Nothing done in war can make it better, and nothing can make it worse.
Now about thw WMD's....that was never disproven, nor will it ever be. Saddam had a little over a year to send his WMD's back to the supplier. Its a little bit too late to arguing about this anyway seeing as how we're already there, the war is already going and we haven't mastered time travel. If you though Farenheit 9/11 was was a well balanced, informative, and unbiased documentary then you are nothing more than an animal gobbeling kibble from the hand of Michael Moore. I agree more with Trey Parker and Matt Stone who made Team America, both sides are wrong. America shouldn't be out policing the world. The next time a fascist dictator tries to take over europe and eradicate all the people he doesn't like we should just sit back and watch.
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elvenwarrior



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought i'd add a couple of things that recently have come to my attention:
In the weeks leading up to the war Bush and Chaney said in mant public addresses that they has sources saying that Iraq was training Al-Quida operatives. These sources were one person, a captured mid level Al-Quida agent who was being interagated. The interogators specificly said in their report that they were almost certain he was lying in order to get them to do something stupid. This was also comunicated to Bush before he made the desision to invade

When the U.S. soldier death toll reached 1000, the White house releised a statement that they tried to get out as quitely as posible, that they estimatted the noncombatant iraqi women and children deaths to be well over 6000

The official U.S. definition of torture in a recent document is that:
The person has to have vital organs destroyed or disabled such that they are dead, or will soon be dead. So a soldier could do anything to a captured person so long as he doesn't kill them.
In order to be convicted of torture:
It has to fall under the strict definition of tourture and they have to prove that the torturer had the INTENT of causeing them to die. It is neer imposible to prove intent AND, all he has to do is say "i meant to hurt him realy bad, but i didn't mean to kill him" and he will get off.
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gumonshoe



Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 416

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God, you know what... Republicans are stupid war-loving Rednecks... LIBERALS KILL AND EAT THERE BABIES!
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CloudRisen



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Ridiculous Reply with quote

Vancer wrote:
This is absolutely ridiculous. White Phosphorus or not, death is death. Can you imagine a battalion of Ceasar's Army coming under investigation for using spears instead or swords? or perhaps even setting fire to a village? War is war. Nothing done in war can make it better, and nothing can make it worse.
Now about thw WMD's....that was never disproven, nor will it ever be. Saddam had a little over a year to send his WMD's back to the supplier. Its a little bit too late to arguing about this anyway seeing as how we're already there, the war is already going and we haven't mastered time travel. If you though Farenheit 9/11 was was a well balanced, informative, and unbiased documentary then you are nothing more than an animal gobbeling kibble from the hand of Michael Moore. I agree more with Trey Parker and Matt Stone who made Team America, both sides are wrong. America shouldn't be out policing the world. The next time a fascist dictator tries to take over europe and eradicate all the people he doesn't like we should just sit back and watch.


Your a moron.
The actual comparison would be to ceasors soldiers taking torches to light there battles in the night and dropping one and torching a town.
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Trotsky1



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are no longer living in the dark ages. There is this thing called compassion for other human beings. These people that were killed, are as innocent as thoose people killed in the twin towers. You should value there life as such.

Can you place yourself living under a fascist dictatorship of which you have no choice? Then you see your family burned to death, in attacks that were aimed to cripple this dictatorship. There is no difference between this and the twin towers except in intent and severity. THe innocent paying the price for there leaders quarrels. It is a sad fact of war BUT we civilised countries try to do all we can to avoid such things because we are civilised and intellegent, caring peoples. In such matters, may we remain vigilant. Less we find ourselves looking and acting like terroists.
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theTJtrooper



Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 125

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
@TJtrooper

The reason why, I did not belive I would have to explain this but it seems I once again I must. I will state the obvious.

If you Ignore any such allegations made against you and they are NOT taken seriously, what happens when something really does happen. Nothing because the claim will be ignored, hence all claims of this nature MUST be taken seriously. (once evidence is provided)

Your example was flawed, if you accused me of stacking my deck, I would only be banned once the allegation was proven, not prior. And what would be the point of making a complaint at all, if it was just going to be dismissed, as untrue. On what is fundementaily a racial basis, if they have solid evidence then any claim of this nature should be taken seriously and looked into further.


The first thing you said was pretty snobish. I can act holier-than-thou on the internet too, its not that hard when you aren't afraid of someone punching you in the face.

You need to understand this and be reasonable...If one person mentions 50 things illegally done by the military, its pretty ridiculous to investigate those claims. Its a waste of time and money, period. The only way a claim can be legit is if a much larger group of people make the claim. What you are suggesting is extremism...there is aboslutely no need to follow up on every single allegation, especially when it comes from a part of the world that is known for anti-U.S. feelings.

What the heck are you talking about my example is flawed? I made up the example to give you a different perspective. My example had nothing to do with the rules and regulations of this site...it was all hypothetical, but apparently you took it literally.

"And what would be the point of making a complaint at all, if it was just going to be dismissed, as untrue."

That an absolutely wonderful quote! I'm now going to answer this question: I hypothetically don't like you, just like European countries don't like the U.S. That is the reason I made the claim...because I want to ruin your image. People will see my post claiming that you cheated, but the might never see the post that states that you are innocent, or they might not even care enough to look after seeing the initial post. In the example, your credibility is shot because I lied. That is the message I hope you understand.


I just read your latest post...that is absolute bullcrap. You dare compare the WTC to U.S. soldiers in the Middle East. Let me tell you something: UNITED STATES SOLDIERS DO NOT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. Our military is the best in the world, no one is better trained. People spend their lives serving our country, and yet they are degraded as family killers by those who have no morals, such as yourself. I like debating war and politics on forums, but I can't stand to see people lie like that about our military. Its disgusting.
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Trizzy60



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goes to show americans are idiots
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Counterlife



Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trizzy60 wrote:
Goes to show americans are idiots

INsert republicans where americans stands. Remember, not everyone in U.S.A(if you call us americans, you prove yourself to be ignorant cause there is a north america and south america, which goes to show how people overseas generalize as much as we do) wanted the war. Hell, drop our prez in Iraq and give hilary clinton a call for all i care.
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Big



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm assuming this applies to the operation designed to root out the terrorists from Fallujah. Civilians where warned to leave leave the City serveral days in advance. It was also know the everyone left in the city was assumed to be a terrorists until proven otherwise(was stated in advance when people were warned to leave). Under those circumstances anyone left in the city is assumed to be the enemy by the troops. If someone is attacking you from a building you blow it up, it's just that simple. People had time to get out either a) They didn't want to leave, knowingly putting there own lives at risk, b) they were being used as humans shields and if I'm a soldier I'm not gonna hesitate when it comes to my own life,c) they were terrorists themselves. Civilians die in War, it's called collateral Damage. No one wants to kill them but I have to get my Squad out of a crossfire. I'd use the napalm, if you don't well somebody has to die.
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Koen
Administrator


Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theTJtrooper wrote:
I just read your latest post...that is absolute bullcrap. You dare compare the WTC to U.S. soldiers in the Middle East. Let me tell you something: UNITED STATES SOLDIERS DO NOT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. Our military is the best in the world, no one is better trained. People spend their lives serving our country, and yet they are degraded as family killers by those who have no morals, such as yourself. I like debating war and politics on forums, but I can't stand to see people lie like that about our military. Its disgusting.


You should really look more into the worldwide news of the past 50 years about the US Military.

Quote:
Not a single major voice has been raised in the American media against the ongoing destruction of Fallujah. While much of the world recognizes something horrifying has occurred, the US press does not bat an eye over the systematic leveling of a city of 300,000 people.
...
The chief United Nations human rights official, Louise Arbour, has called for an investigation of abuses, including the disproportionate use of force and the targeting of civilians. Arbour claimed that all violations of international humanitarian and human rights laws should be investigated, including “the deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, the killing of injured persons and the use of human shields.” The American media either ignores or brushes this aside.
...
As Marjorie Cohn, professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, executive vice president of the National Lawyers Guild and the US representative to the executive committee of the American Association of Jurists, has noted, the attack began with an act contravening international law: “They [US forces] stormed and occupied the Fallujah General Hospital, and have not agreed to allow doctors and ambulances to go inside the main part of the city to help the wounded, in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.”
...
Cohn continues: “Torture, inhuman treatment, and willful killing are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, treaties ratified by the United States. Grave breaches of Geneva are considered war crimes under our federal War Crimes Act of 1996.
...
There has been nothing like the attack on Fallujah since the Nazi invasion and occupation of much of the European continent—the shelling and bombing of Warsaw in September 1939, the terror bombing of Rotterdam in May 1940. All the talk about precision bombing in Iraq is dust thrown in the public’s eyes.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/fall-n17.shtml

Quote:
there is little doubt that Fallujah had to be retaken. The city is the headquarters for Iraq’s Sunni Muslim minority, and without Sunni participation January’s elections could be considered illegitimate.
- St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Right, these people need to participate in the elctions. Let's bomb them. Good reasoning.
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