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Asylum Rant - Rant 5 - Freedom for...who again?


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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hank333 wrote:
9/11.
Ok I won’t. But since then, how many new laws have been enacted in the United States that strip our civil liberties? The patriot act is a total abomination. It completely rapes the constitution. http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?civilliberties_patriot_act=civilliberties_patriot_act&timeline=civilliberties
There is a small list of some of the executive powers that can be enacted, if there is a “state of emergency.” What is a state of emergency? Anything the government wants to call an emergency; is an emergency. With the help of the Media; the forth branch of the government, the people will believe it is an emergency. If the president slips and sprains his ankle, the media can probably that spin hard enough to make that seem like a national emergency.
Less talked about is the Military Commissions act, making it legal for the military to police the country. A militarize police force is horrible for any supposedly free country. So basically our freedoms are easily suspended. Why did this happen? Fear.

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
-Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, and Christian Fundamentalist hate freedom. They want blind submission. I would have voted no on prop 8, if I lived in Cali. I do believe though, that same sex marriage could lead to more fraud, but I think that is a small technical issue. Frankly, I don’t even believe that the states form of “marriage” is really relevant. The institution of marriage in this country is a disgrace. There is what, a %50 divorce rate? Our America culture is sick. Marriage does not need the state to approve of it; it is a spiritual decision between two people.



You do realize that it was a fundamentalist Christian (William Wilburforce) who ended the slave trade in Britain, right? Oh but that doesn't count, right?
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolcreep wrote:

You do realize that it was a fundamentalist Christian (William Wilburforce) who ended the slave trade in Britain, right? Oh but that doesn't count, right?


We'll ignore the fact that pretty much everyone in Britain during the 1750s was some form of a christen, spelling out the fact that if 95% of the people are Christian, it'd be kind of obvious that most of the Abolitionist party would be too. And instead focus on the large portions of the Catholic and Baptist churches that supported the pro slavery movement in America.

"OMG a few of them did a good thing in 1700s!! Wow, we can just forget all the stupid shit they've done and continue today too!!!1"

And no I'm not saying the religion itself is bad, but merely the majority of those who practice it.

coolcreep wrote:

[00:06] <coolcreep> I love the people who post on Craze's rants
[00:06] <coolcreep> they are even dumber than craze


I love people who insult my rants, they seem to think they aren't stupid.[/quote]

Edit ----

Holy shit I just noticed you made three posts...
what you didn't think to just go with 1 big one?

coolcreep wrote:

Way to assume that everyone of those 5.6 million who voted for prop 8 are Christian, and that all of those 5.4 million who voted against it aren't. You have absolutely no idea the percentages, as it was a PRIVATE VOTE. How about if you are going to go on a huge rant about how you shouldn't judge people, don't go and assume that all the christians in the world are bigots.


It's more assuming that MOST of them are. Yes, I did cite the entire number in implication of them all being Christian, but not one of them has a good reason for saying YES to eliminating rights. And being as Prop 8 received a majority of its funding/support through churches ranging from multiple branches of Christianity I'd say the Christian community at large is at fault.
Kinda like how an entire country is blamed for the actions of it's leaders.

Quote:
As an Atheist, I am embarassed by the behavior of some of my fellow atheists towards christians.


As a human I am embarrassed by the behavior of all 5.6 million who voted yes for Prop 8.

Quote:
While Prop. 8 is unfortunate, I find it odd that people outside of America are getting so angry over it, yet when gay people are actually killed for who they are in, say, Iran, nobody seems to care. It seems that its ok to persecute gay people, so long as they are outside the USA.


Despite the fact that no one is saying its even remotely okay for gay people to die in Iran, don't you think it's a little hard to stop acts of hate in a country at odds with most of the world, especially when the problem is also in the most self claimed "free" country in the world.
And hell look at Europe and you'll see the overall gay community is at large in acceptance. Hell you can see that through their media.

God why does 90% of everything you say have to be so stupid?
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
coolcreep wrote:

You do realize that it was a fundamentalist Christian (William Wilburforce) who ended the slave trade in Britain, right? Oh but that doesn't count, right?


We'll ignore the fact that pretty much everyone in Britain during the 1750s was some form of a christen, spelling out the fact that if 95% of the people are Christian, it'd be kind of obvious that most of the Abolitionist party would be too. And instead focus on the large portions of the Catholic and Baptist churches that supported the pro slavery movement in America.

"OMG a few of them did a good thing in 1700s!! Wow, we can just forget all the stupid shit they've done and continue today too!!!1"

And no I'm not saying the religion itself is bad, but merely the majority of those who practice it.

coolcreep wrote:

[00:06] <coolcreep> I love the people who post on Craze's rants
[00:06] <coolcreep> they are even dumber than craze


I love people who insult my rants, they seem to think they aren't stupid.


Edit ----

Holy shit I just noticed you made three posts...
what you didn't think to just go with 1 big one?

coolcreep wrote:

Way to assume that everyone of those 5.6 million who voted for prop 8 are Christian, and that all of those 5.4 million who voted against it aren't. You have absolutely no idea the percentages, as it was a PRIVATE VOTE. How about if you are going to go on a huge rant about how you shouldn't judge people, don't go and assume that all the christians in the world are bigots.


It's more assuming that MOST of them are. Yes, I did cite the entire number in implication of them all being Christian, but not one of them has a good reason for saying YES to eliminating rights. And being as Prop 8 received a majority of its funding/support through churches ranging from multiple branches of Christianity I'd say the Christian community at large is at fault.
Kinda like how an entire country is blamed for the actions of it's leaders.

Quote:
As an Atheist, I am embarassed by the behavior of some of my fellow atheists towards christians.


As a human I am embarrassed by the behavior of all 5.6 million who voted yes for Prop 8.

Quote:
While Prop. 8 is unfortunate, I find it odd that people outside of America are getting so angry over it, yet when gay people are actually killed for who they are in, say, Iran, nobody seems to care. It seems that its ok to persecute gay people, so long as they are outside the USA.


Despite the fact that no one is saying its even remotely okay for gay people to die in Iran, don't you think it's a little hard to stop acts of hate in a country at odds with most of the world, especially when the problem is also in the most self claimed "free" country in the world.
And hell look at Europe and you'll see the overall gay community is at large in acceptance. Hell you can see that through their media.

God why does 90% of everything you say have to be so stupid?[/quote]

Why is it when a christian does something good because of his religion you say "well most people were christian so most abolitionists were christian" but when people vote on prop 8 you dont say "well most people are christian so most of the people who voted no on prop 8 are christian". Wilburforce was far more religious than your average Briton, he even considered being a priest rather than a politician. You claim to not want us to see each other in categories, only see each other as people, then you talk about how black people should have all voted no on prop 8 because they are also minorities, you talk about how horrible christians are, etc. How about you practice what you preach, and just say "its terrible that prop. 8 passed" without blaming any specific group.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It occurs to me why you always sound stupid...
you don't actually go back and read anything you spout before posting it, do you? I mean if you did, you would of been able to fix that jumble fuck of a post there.

Quote:
Why is it when a christian does something good because of his religion you say "well most people were christian so most abolitionists were christian" but when people vote on prop 8 you dont say "well most people are christian so most of the people who voted no on prop 8 are christian". Wilburforce was far more religious than your average Briton, he even considered being a priest rather than a politician. You claim to not want us to see each other in categories, only see each other as people, then you talk about how black people should have all voted no on prop 8 because they are also minorities, you talk about how horrible christians are, etc. How about you practice what you preach, and just say "its terrible that prop. 8 passed" without blaming any specific group.


In Britain during the 1700s it's easy to say 98% of the population was one form of Christianity or another. So stating "oh one of the hundreds of abolitionists was a very religious Christian" is like saying "oh one of the hundreds of anti slavery politicians in America was white"
See? We call this obvious. Yes, he was a super Christian and all, but back then who wasn't?

You seem to think I myself am profiling people into groups, when I'm not. See, when I blame the Christian community, I'm blaming the churches. And the vast number of people who voted YES because of it. They put the wheels on the Prop 8 train and pushed it off out of the station.
They are the a community who happen to be all Christians, hence Christian community. But that doesn't include EVERY Christian. I know several Christians who don't follow the church itself and who would have voted no. Hell, they're gay Christians losing their rights here!

And I find it funny that some of the YES's come from people who have a family history of fighting for civil rights.
EVERYONE should have voted no, and these who can relate most of all and STILL voted yes... well can't you see the irony there?

So instead of asking me, why I chose to point out certain points like who voted YES, how the bill got support, and why all of this is in a number of ways, stupid and wrong, why don't you instead quit trying to find faults in everything I do. Because you fail at it, you insult alot of people while doing it, and you make yourself look stupid ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
It occurs to me why you always sound stupid...
you don't actually go back and read anything you spout before posting it, do you? I mean if you did, you would of been able to fix that jumble fuck of a post there.

Quote:
Why is it when a christian does something good because of his religion you say "well most people were christian so most abolitionists were christian" but when people vote on prop 8 you dont say "well most people are christian so most of the people who voted no on prop 8 are christian". Wilburforce was far more religious than your average Briton, he even considered being a priest rather than a politician. You claim to not want us to see each other in categories, only see each other as people, then you talk about how black people should have all voted no on prop 8 because they are also minorities, you talk about how horrible christians are, etc. How about you practice what you preach, and just say "its terrible that prop. 8 passed" without blaming any specific group.


In Britain during the 1700s it's easy to say 98% of the population was one form of Christianity or another. So stating "oh one of the hundreds of abolitionists was a very religious Christian" is like saying "oh one of the hundreds of anti slavery politicians in America was white"
See? We call this obvious. Yes, he was a super Christian and all, but back then who wasn't?

You seem to think I myself am profiling people into groups, when I'm not. See, when I blame the Christian community, I'm blaming the churches. And the vast number of people who voted YES because of it. They put the wheels on the Prop 8 train and pushed it off out of the station.
They are the a community who happen to be all Christians, hence Christian community. But that doesn't include EVERY Christian. I know several Christians who don't follow the church itself and who would have voted no. Hell, they're gay Christians losing their rights here!

And I find it funny that some of the YES's come from people who have a family history of fighting for civil rights.
EVERYONE should have voted no, and these who can relate most of all and STILL voted yes... well can't you see the irony there?

So instead of asking me, why I chose to point out certain points like who voted YES, how the bill got support, and why all of this is in a number of ways, stupid and wrong, why don't you instead quit trying to find faults in everything I do. Because you fail at it, you insult alot of people while doing it, and you make yourself look stupid ALL AT THE SAME TIME.



First of all, it was not one of hundreds. He was the person who pushed through the legislation which destroyed the slave trade, and was essentially the face of hte abolotionist movement. Again, he was FAR MORE religious than the average person. The average person did not consider becoming a priest. Also, if you want me to stop finding faults in what you do, stop doing such faulty things.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First of all, it was not one of hundreds. He was the person who pushed through the legislation which destroyed the slave trade, and was essentially the face of hte abolotionist movement. Again, he was FAR MORE religious than the average person. The average person did not consider becoming a priest. Also, if you want me to stop finding faults in what you do, stop doing such faulty things.


I said your trying to find faults, not that you actually are...

Secondly William Wilberforce became an important member of the Abolitionist movement, yes but he was hardly the face of it all. The real man behind it all was Thomas Clarkson and a group of Quakers. Clarkson managed to convince Wilberforce in 1787.
To sum up, Wilberforce's Evangelical views really had nothing to do with the start of or eventual outlawing of slavery in Britain. In fact it was a series of different men all with different faiths that eventually pushed the Slavery Abolition Act into place.
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
Quote:
First of all, it was not one of hundreds. He was the person who pushed through the legislation which destroyed the slave trade, and was essentially the face of hte abolotionist movement. Again, he was FAR MORE religious than the average person. The average person did not consider becoming a priest. Also, if you want me to stop finding faults in what you do, stop doing such faulty things.


I said your trying to find faults, not that you actually are...

Secondly William Wilberforce became an important member of the Abolitionist movement, yes but he was hardly the face of it all. The real man behind it all was Thomas Clarkson and a group of Quakers. Clarkson managed to convince Wilberforce in 1787.
To sum up, Wilberforce's Evangelical views really had nothing to do with the start of or eventual outlawing of slavery in Britain. In fact it was a series of different men all with different faiths that eventually pushed the Slavery Abolition Act into place.


You do realize what Quakers are, right? And his evangelical views are what inspired him to do what he did. Stop giving the responsibility to christians when they do something bad, but not when they do something good. It is very annoying.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coolcreep wrote:

You do realize what Quakers are, right? And his evangelical views are what inspired him to do what he did. Stop giving the responsibility to christians when they do something bad, but not when they do something good. It is very annoying.


The point is no individual religion(yes I know Quaker is a branch of Christianity) is responsible for the Slavery Abolition Act. It took a dozen people with different faiths working together to do it. So Wilberforce was inspired from his religion, thats nice. But that doesn't mean that religious community did anything good. Just means one man having that faith did.
Tell you what when the Christian community(A individual branches Church community) actually does something in history worth anything, I'll give credit to them.
And then I'll still attack those who made Prop 8 possible. Because your only as good as your latest actions and they're latest bullshit speaks for itself.
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