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Asylum Rant - Rant 5 - Freedom for...who again?


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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Asylum Rant - Rant 5 - Freedom for...who again? Reply with quote

Rules of the Asylum
Rule 1. There are no real point to these
Before you yell troll, realize that I'm actually writing something that can be discussed, thus its not spam. BUT if you are to ask me why you should read this, I have no answer.

Rule 2. Nothing I say or do has any direct or indirect relation to this or any other magic league

Rule 3. These are my opinions, not yours.
Feel free to tell me yours.

now on to my rant...

I as an American who voted in this last election had debated doing a rant on the election for a while. No, this is not a rant on the election. But it does have something to do with the election.
See, I end up deciding not to do a rant on the election because I think that the election itself was not of issue. I mean, if you voted for McCain, o-k thats your right. Same goes for Obama too. The important part is the right to vote in the long run, is it not?
Now personally I could get into a rant about the fact that in reality we are not a democracy. We are a republic. Our votes cast during election meant absolute shit under the current voting system(see New Mexico - who's popular vote was in favor of McCain by at least 60%, buts electoral votes went to Obama).
I could banter on the fact that the electoral college is a broken system created in a time when politics and patriotism were entirely different beasts then they are today.

But my real issue goes beyond that. Yes, we aren't a real democracy, and that pisses me off. But more importantly we aren't even a free country and that is what really hurts. And while it doesn't start there, the most recent reminder of this is in California.


Freedom for...wait who was it for again?

Proposition 8 for those of you who do not know, was a ballot to change the California Constitution so that it defines that a marriage is only between a man and a woman. This in result bans gay marriages. On November 8th while most of the world was watching history as America elected its first African American President, thousands of homosexual couples were in turn watching history as what was supposed to be one of the more supportive states in the country took away their rights.
Why? Well for once no one can claim "bullshit" when I say religion. Christian churches through out the state had told their followers to support and donate to this proposition.
Now of course we will go ahead and ignore the fact that it's illegal and immoral for churches to financially or publicly support elections, because in truth does the fact that religion supported this really surprise anyone? I mean really when hasn't Christianity, a religion that literally encourages the downfall of other religions, not supported unequal rights. When hasn't the bible been twisted and misused to take rights away from those who don't read it?
Look to pre-civil war America, when churches literally taught and supported slavery. Look to WW2 when churches bluntly ignored the acts being done in their name throughout Europe.
I mean since when has this country's strive for freedom come to only include those who worship Jesus Christ as a savior?

Of course this comes as no surprise to me. They're are some surprises however that came November 4th though. One of them being 70% of African Americans, the race that literally have been fighting for equal rights for the last 100 years, in California voted yes to Prop 8.
I guess they are prone to forgetting the times when they weren't allowed to vote, or to attend colleges, or to really do anything. Yes they must be to actually strip rights from other minorities.

And whats all of this for anyway? The "sanctity of marriage?" Pretend for an instant that the "sanctity of marriage" exists. Why the hell are we protecting it now? I don't remember anyone rising up to protect it during Brittany Spears dozen or so marriages...
I don't recall anyone minding about it during any of the 100,000 marriages performed by Elvis wannabes in Las Vegas...
I mean nowadays its legal for dogs to get married. Yes ladies and gentlemen, dogs have a right that about 10% of the country does not. But its ok, because 40% of America thinks the "sanctity of marriage" is safe now.

But Craze, surely this isn't just a rant about gay marriage

Of course not. This is more then that. This is a rant about both sides ignoring logic, ignoring the basic freedoms this country was brought up by in favor of idiocy. And it really is both sides.

Stefan Molyneux is the left handed side of what I consider Roger Ailes to be. And thats a idiot that twists facts and is soo shoved to one side as to not practice what he claims. And thats "viewing issues logically and impartially."
For those of you who don't know Roger Ailes is a right sided Republican who runs FOX News Channel.
Stefan Molyneux is a atheist podcaster who is sadly gaining more and more attention through his website: www.freedomainradio.com

Stefan Molyneux essentially makes shit up. He rarely cites anything he preaches and what he does cite from is either highly misread or is garbage. He is literally the equivalent of a Christian preacher but for the other side.
Now, getting through one of his idiotic podcasts is very hard to do, being as alot of them tend to jump off topic in and out. (example: A podcast on Public Schooling covers everything from his opinion on communism to "how long he thinks his podcasts tend to be")

In a youtube video of his(oh yes he forces us to look at his ugly ass too) about gay marriage. He states homosexuality is caused by a rush of hormones while in the womb.
Now lets pretend for a second that he did not imply homosexuality is a hormonal disorder. Can anyone reference proof to this? And not some idiot study that rivals in evidence the theory that teens who play DnD become satanists. No, I mean real scientific proof that 9/10 dentists will get behind.
No? Didn't think so.
Worse yet, he is like so many Christians in tendency to twist passages from the bible to support claims of his such as "the bible promotes hate."

But Craze, didn't you...

No I didn't at all reference the bible when talking about the history of Christianity's bullshit earlier. I am not a Christian nor an atheist. What I actually believe in is irrelevant, but I do acknowledge that the newer passages in the bible teach good morals. The problem is those who twist the book to justify prejudice. The problem is those who kill/hurt in the name of it. And sadly thats where its heading.
And it's the manipulation of religion that is killing America.

America is no longer the land of the free. And won't be until we start uniting far more and segregating far less. Not until we stop looking at each other as republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, Christians, atheists, black, white. And start looking at each other as human beings.

On November 4th, most of the world watched history as America voted it's first African American president into office. Me? I watched history as America took one step away from freedom.

I'm Craze, and until next time...
-TomW
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

once again craze, i find myself agreeing with you
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shadow483



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a California resident, I'm glad I voted no on 8. My opinion on gay marriage is indifferent, I voted no because I saw how this was the starting point of discrimination against Homosexuals.
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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

9/11.
Ok I won’t. But since then, how many new laws have been enacted in the United States that strip our civil liberties? The patriot act is a total abomination. It completely rapes the constitution. http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?civilliberties_patriot_act=civilliberties_patriot_act&timeline=civilliberties
There is a small list of some of the executive powers that can be enacted, if there is a “state of emergency.” What is a state of emergency? Anything the government wants to call an emergency; is an emergency. With the help of the Media; the forth branch of the government, the people will believe it is an emergency. If the president slips and sprains his ankle, the media can probably that spin hard enough to make that seem like a national emergency.
Less talked about is the Military Commissions act, making it legal for the military to police the country. A militarize police force is horrible for any supposedly free country. So basically our freedoms are easily suspended. Why did this happen? Fear.

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
-Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, and Christian Fundamentalist hate freedom. They want blind submission. I would have voted no on prop 8, if I lived in Cali. I do believe though, that same sex marriage could lead to more fraud, but I think that is a small technical issue. Frankly, I don’t even believe that the states form of “marriage” is really relevant. The institution of marriage in this country is a disgrace. There is what, a %50 divorce rate? Our America culture is sick. Marriage does not need the state to approve of it; it is a spiritual decision between two people.
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Onyx



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: trelkgdkllkjgh` Reply with quote

Your stupid!
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have actually convinced me your not an idiot which considering how big an idiot i thought you were thats quite impressive. Well said and well done!
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: trelkgdkllkjgh` Reply with quote

Onyx wrote:
Your stupid!


if your talking to me, I'll gladly call you stupider for that rather idiotic 2 word little crap post you just did there.

Next time try using logic, or since you probably are incapable of that, try jumping off a cliff instead. You'd do use all a favor that way. Razz
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Vecc



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This illustrates perfectly how conveniently twisted things such as human rights can be.

Articles 1 and 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

1- All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

2 - Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

You see, bar some kind of Jedi mindtrick by California Proposition 8 supporters, it's absolutely clear that the approval of this proposition is a violation (read absolute and utter rape) of a document officially adopted by the UN General Assembly, signed by the United States and a result of various international treaties.

This sort of "legal getaround" has been happening constantly and for a long, long time. Like, since the end of World War II, when it was written. But the absolute WORST part of it is that in this case, like many others, the thin mantle behind which they hide stuff like this and most people don't even BOTHER to look through is democracy itself. People of California are to blame for it; because they approved, through their vote, restricting the freedom of a minority simply for the fact that they can't and don't want to understand them.

This is absolutely no better than killing people for their religion. And history shows that it's a problem particularly hard to get rid off because people don't want to.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vecc wrote:
This illustrates perfectly how conveniently twisted things such as human rights can be.

Articles 1 and 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

1- All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

2 - Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

You see, bar some kind of Jedi mindtrick by California Proposition 8 supporters, it's absolutely clear that the approval of this proposition is a violation (read absolute and utter rape) of a document officially adopted by the UN General Assembly, signed by the United States and a result of various international treaties.

This sort of "legal getaround" has been happening constantly and for a long, long time. Like, since the end of World War II, when it was written. But the absolute WORST part of it is that in this case, like many others, the thin mantle behind which they hide stuff like this and most people don't even BOTHER to look through is democracy itself. People of California are to blame for it; because they approved, through their vote, restricting the freedom of a minority simply for the fact that they can't and don't want to understand them.

This is absolutely no better than killing people for their religion. And history shows that it's a problem particularly hard to get rid off because people don't want to.


damn straight
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stucco wrote:
As a Christian, I see your views on Christianity as unfortunate. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to advise us on how to live a "good" life. It is up to use to make the correct choices.
The Christians that make the news now, the ones you seem to think represent all of us, seem to lack one very key aspect to the faith. That aspect is compassion. They walk around telling you what to do and how to do it. Should you think their way is incorrect, they view you as hell-bound. Not only is the ultimate end to others not their choice, their anger only hurts themselves.
We are not all like that. I do hope that you realize this. History always remembers the radicals, but forgets those that live a good life. Good lives are not as news-worthy, but exist and are quite abundant.


No, but a majority of you are like that. See 5,668,960/11,077,208 citizens of California for further details.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look down on people who look down on others. And if you can't admit that covers a large portion of your religion, accept that it covers a large portion of your religion's churches as well. over 60% of the funding for Prop 8 came from religious groups inspired and encouraged to donate/support BY THEY'RE CHURCHES.

Now if your a Christian, who is seriously against the stripping of liberties from other types of people, power to you. I hold nothing against you or judge you in anyway. But people who justify stripping others of their rights (and that being the majority of your religion as well as its higher members) are who I do criticize.
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CalebD
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stucco wrote:

The Christians that make the news now, the ones you seem to think represent all of us,


Note that Craze also cited an atheist, one who is considered a nutcase by, say, the respectable Christopher Hitchens-style atheist. His point wasn't that all Christians are morally degraded, just that most are mindless sheep being shepherded by the morally degraded.

I think what Craze is saying is that when people put their faith not in their beliefs, but those who have somehow risen to power within their beliefs, real problems occur. Such as prop 8 being passed because people were told what to think, instead of taught how to interpret the Bible for themselves (like a Unitarian or a Satanist might teach)

All that aside, I personally have a few problems with Christianity and other descendants of Zoroastrianism (not necessarily with every believer of the faith though, I'm not generalizing here). It teaches morals based on fear. If you sin you will go to hell. When the faith fades, and someone stops believing in hell, the moral values the recipient learned are now useless. Believe what you will, but I'm pretty sure this is one reason for whatever moral decay we are seeing in our society today.

How about we stop relying on dogma and start teaching our kids how to think for themselves for a change, eh?
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
Stucco wrote:
As a Christian, I see your views on Christianity as unfortunate. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to advise us on how to live a "good" life. It is up to use to make the correct choices.
The Christians that make the news now, the ones you seem to think represent all of us, seem to lack one very key aspect to the faith. That aspect is compassion. They walk around telling you what to do and how to do it. Should you think their way is incorrect, they view you as hell-bound. Not only is the ultimate end to others not their choice, their anger only hurts themselves.
We are not all like that. I do hope that you realize this. History always remembers the radicals, but forgets those that live a good life. Good lives are not as news-worthy, but exist and are quite abundant.


No, but a majority of you are like that. See 5,668,960/11,077,208 citizens of California for further details.



Way to assume that everyone of those 5.6 million who voted for prop 8 are Christian, and that all of those 5.4 million who voted against it aren't. You have absolutely no idea the percentages, as it was a PRIVATE VOTE. How about if you are going to go on a huge rant about how you shouldn't judge people, don't go and assume that all the christians in the world are bigots.


As an Atheist, I am embarassed by the behavior of some of my fellow atheists towards christians.
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
I look down on people who look down on others. And if you can't admit that covers a large portion of your religion, accept that it covers a large portion of your religion's churches as well. over 60% of the funding for Prop 8 came from religious groups inspired and encouraged to donate/support BY THEY'RE CHURCHES.

Now if your a Christian, who is seriously against the stripping of liberties from other types of people, power to you. I hold nothing against you or judge you in anyway. But people who justify stripping others of their rights (and that being the majority of your religion as well as its higher members) are who I do criticize.


If you look down on people who look down on others, doesn't that mean you look down on yourself? How does one accomplish that? I am assuming a complex mirror scheme.
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coolcreep



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While Prop. 8 is unfortunate, I find it odd that people outside of America are getting so angry over it, yet when gay people are actually killed for who they are in, say, Iran, nobody seems to care. It seems that its ok to persecute gay people, so long as they are outside the USA.
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