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Advice wanted for Final States List



 
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JSUOversoul



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 135

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Advice wanted for Final States List Reply with quote

Ok, so I've decided to play 5-Color Cruel Control at States next weekend. However, due to my job not allowing me that much testing time during the week, I'm looking for some advice. I've tested the deck a lot when I have had the time to play, and it's done pretty well, but there are still a couple of spots I'm not sure about, mostly in the sideboard. I'm also looking for advice on how some of you guys think I should sideboard against the different decks I'm likely to come across at States (Faeries, Kithkin, RDW, mirror match, whatever else there is). Anyway, here's the list:

4 - Reflecting Pool
4 - Vivid Creek
3 - Vivid Grove
2 - Vivid Meadow
2 - Vivid Marsh
3 - Island
2 - Sunken Ruins
2 - Mystic Gate
2 - Flooded Grove
1 - Cascade Bluffs

4 - Mulldrifter
4 - Kitchen Finks
2 - Cloudthresher
1 - Nucklavee
1 - Empyrial Archangel

4 - Cryptic Command
4 - Wrath of God
3 - Esper Charm
3 - Bant Charm
3 - Negate
2 - Makeshift Mannequin
2 - Firespout
2 - Cruel Ultimatum

Sideboard:
1 - Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 - Negate
2 - Cloudthresher
2 - Shriekmaw
3 - Memory Plunder
3 - Condemn
3 - Vexing Shusher

Ok, here are my questions/concerns:

#1 - Is Cruel Ultimatum worth running? Is it just a "win-more" card and just not necessary, or is it a must-have? I have also tested a version without it that replaced it with 2 Primal Commands, and that worked well also. I will say that I have only lost one game during testing where I resolved the Ultimatum.

#2 - The Shriekmaws are mostly there to give me two more removal slots against anything they would be good against (mostly Kithkin & Elves). Are they worth keeping, or should they go in place of either Firespout #3 & something else, or maybe 2 Mind Shatter? Maybe Esper Charm #4 & Bant Charm #4?

#3 - Memory Plunder or Oblivion Ring? I like both, but I'm not sure how many 5CC decks will be at States (I live in Alabama, if that tells anybody anything), and if there isn't a heavy amount of the deck there, then Memory Plunder will be sub-optimal. However, Oblivion Ring is good against damn near anything. Thoughts? The closer it gets to Saturday, the more I'm leaning towards taking out the Memory Plunders for the O-Rings.

#4 - Vexing Shusher or Guttural Response? Or something different I'm missing altogether? I would like to have two Glen-Elendra Archmages in the board, but seeing as how I don't own any and it's too late for me to get some, I doubt there will be a way I can include them. Maybe even 3 Faerie Macabres or 3 Relic of Progenitus in these slots, since Reveillark is generally a bad matchup for me?

Any input/ideas are appreciated, just please don't post a link to Chris Woltereck's deck or anything like that, I'm not going to run a straight copy of someone else's deck.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cruel isnt that good, memory plunder is awful, and shusher is alright. pyroclasm is better than firespout
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Zerotlr



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Empyrial Archangel is horrible.
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Terminus-Est
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1: Cruel Ultimatum is good, but not 4-of good. You want one or two, as you have here.

#2: Shriekmaws are good.

#3: Memory plunder is not good.

#4: Archmage is great if you could get it. Missing that, I'd go for shusher or guttural. Bant Charm and Esper Charm are getting alot of play in addition to Cryptic Command so Guttural response has more viable targets to counter than ever before and will come in against things other than 'just' counters/faeries..

#5: As your running cloudthreshers main, firespout isn't needed as much as it would be normally. You can probably get away with dropping spout for pyro as suggested, but I'm unsure as to the quality of the move.
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gypsy



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clasm kills the same stuff as spout but clasm kills figure on the draw
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curly



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cut a bant charm for a 4th esper charm.
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magicbmx



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes go with for esper charm but god dont get rid of bant i run 4 bant charms because i feel they are just amazing. Can deal with random artifacts which there might be like hammer and other things. Also its condenm without them having to attack or let them gain life. Also can be some help in counter fight non faerie or against burn spells in rdw. Also archangle i dont like just nothing great there. Plus with 4 wraths i would run 1 spout atleast and only one cruel i feel 2 is just over kill.
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Dracon_ian



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cut spout, the four WoG do the business for you.
If spout is cut, then nucklavee is only half as good, since it can only hit cruel ultimatum + blue instant.

I would also cut Empyrial Archangel. It just costs too much play.

That gives you 3 spaces in main, I'd probably run both shreikmaws in main, and either a fourh charm or Negate (I personally go for a fouth Negate).

Also, swap out 1 island for a Cascade Bluffs, need to get red mana more easily for CU.

So in SB, you're -3, I'd also cut Memory Plunder and Vexing shusher. With the Bant charm, negates, and cryptic commands, you don't need those cards.

So, -9, i'd +3 Wheel of sun and moon for lark, and mirror. Glen-Elendra Archmages are good, try and get 1 or two if you can. If not, i'd also +4 Remove souls (some decks just don't play enough non-creature spells), +2 mind shatters/+2 snakeform. I prefer snakeform, but it's a matter of playing style.

Hope that was of some help.
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FallenAngel1



Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 - Reflecting Pool
4 - Vivid Creek
3 - Vivid Grove
2 - Vivid Meadow
2 - Vivid Marsh
3 - Island
2 - Sunken Ruins
2 - Mystic Gate
2 - Flooded Grove
1 - Cascade Bluffs

4 - Mulldrifter
4 - Kitchen Finks
2 - Cloudthresher
1 - Nucklavee
1 - Empyrial Archangel

4 - Cryptic Command
4 - Wrath of God
4 - Esper Charm
3 - Bant Charm
3 - Negate
2 - Makeshift Mannequin
1 - Pyroclasm
2 - Cruel Ultimatum

Sideboard:
1 - Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 - Negate
2 - Cloudthresher
2 - Shriekmaw
2 - Ajani Vengant
4 - Condemn
3 - Resounding Thunder

This is would i do with your list. Believe me when i say Archangel is worth playing. i dont know what state you play in but there was a small tournament in the philly area and it was al kithkin / faeries / 5cc. archangel is great against them all. and for the people that say its too expensive, your supposed to manni it back. Resounding thunder is uber-tech in the mirror because they cant counter the cycling. Also, ajani is very good in the mirror because he holds off there big stuff a turn and forces them to bounce it or swing till its gone or they pretty much lose
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Tidus-
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

//NAME: Untitled Deck
1 Cascade Bluffs
3 Flooded Grove
4 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow
2 Mystic Gate
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Island
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Mulldrifter
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Cloudthresher
1 Oona, Queen of the fae
4 Cryptic Command
2 Bant Charm
1 Oona's Grace
4 Wrath of God
4 Esper Charm
3 Remove Soul
1 Firespout
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Condemn
// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Cloudthresher
SB: 3 Resounding Thunder
SB: 1 Condemn
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Jund Charm

This is my current list

I prefer firespout over Pyroclasm becasue you can kill fliers and still beat with kitchen finks
figure of desnity can be dealt by condenm and Bant charmed
Resounding thunder is very good mirror technologie that we can thank starcity for (it got it right this time as memeroy plunder is plain bad) try to get at least 1 archmage it is so very good

Also i was playing broodmate dragon over Oona which was good as it gave you a double threat but Oona just wins if u can untap with her.
Vexing shusher is not as good as it was with resounding thunders now hanging around but it is still my player of choice, though i am open to test gutteral response.

Remove soul greatly helps in the revilark mu while not sacrficing much in other mu's such as fearies and the mirror.

Jund charm is good vs fae as it is instant and can be used before before the get clique on line.

Esper Charm is more important than bant charm and needs to be at 4 while condemn does the job simualr as bant charm but not at the over populated 3cc

Im still very much on the cruel ultimatum band wagon and it should surely be at 2 as it isnt a win more card a lot of the time but when u play it it scures victory almost 95% of the time

Hope this helped my friend have a blast at states with this extremly powerful deck

Peace out
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aldaryn



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been working on 5c too, here are my thoughts.

1.) You need 26 land, maybe 27. I'm sad sometimes at 26.

2.) I really like playing 1 Oona's Grace. I can't bring myself to 2, but it's very very useful when you have it.

3.) I don't like Cruel Ultimatum, but I feel like the mirror is going to have you at a disadvantage if they have it and you don't.

4.) Runed Halo and Story Circle are great for kithkin and red; I'm maindecking SC to steal games. Don't forget red brings in Everlasting Torment, so keep in Esper Charms.

5.) Empyrial is too slow.

6.) Memory plunder is cute but too narrow. I have no idea what the best mirror plan is though, I don't like Resounding Thunder much. Ajani Vengeant seems ok?

7.) Shriekmaw isn't that good anymore, sucks vs. the mirror, Faeries; lots of red creatures are black..I'd rather have condemns. For the same reason mannequin isn't as good anymore, though you have threshers main too, so you should probably keep them.

8.) Pyroclasm and spout I could go either way, but I lean towards clasm. It's faster and so what if it kills your finks; you persist and gain 2 life.
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Cheemo



Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

playing jund charm is good too like instant pyroclasm Wink
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