Classic Tog vs Loam Tog

Parshath · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 9

As many already know, Classic Tog is UB Tog that uses the same ol' tactics like simply using cantrips, counters, and card advantage cards to strength tog for 1 lethal attack.

However, people don't like to use the same ol' classic deck type and have updated Tog (i.e. Scepter Tog). Well, now there's a new update for Tog now and it uses the card Life from the Loam along with cycling lands to get 2-3 more cards per turn and 3 more cards into the grave (via Life from the Loam's dredge.)

However, does this new card-draw engine overshadow the Classic? The Classic Tog has proven to be the superior Tog build even with the other builds in the past but is it still the superior build?

In my opinion, yes. The Life of the Loam combo does take a while to set-up and it's a pain to find manually unless you use Gifts. But classic tog doesn't need a special engine. Almost all of it's cards in the deck work to support to lethal tog without having to be combo'ed with other cards.

Now, the latest PT shows use the two different builds. Classic Tog (ran by Olivier Ruel's brother, Antoine) won that PT. Life from the Loam Tog decks were seen.

Craig Jones had his own build which had other kill spells rather than Tog in Troll and Mongrel and it had Troll to up the grave count to pump tog as well as come in as a big beat. He also ran Genesis to retrieve a Tog that was either killed, countered or milled. He went 8-0 day 1 which showed that this deck build had potential.

Kenji Tsumura also ran a Life from the Loam Tog deck that actually got to the top 8 but it was very different from Craig Jones' build as it ran more counters and removal.

The best chance to see the strength of both decks as Kenji faced Ruel's Classic in the semifinals, with Ruel coming out 3-0. This win was important as it showed that the Life from the Loam combo is too slow in the Tog mirror.

However, how do these decks do in other matchups?

Classic Tog has individual cards that work for advantage while the Life from the Loam Tog deck depends on the Loam combo to gain a good card advantage. Also, adding a third color makes it a bit harder to get the right color at the right time especially when you have double color spells like Counterspell.

I would say Classic Tog would be better vs faster decks, but what is your opinion.

Also, keep your opinions to the point and backup your thoughts with details.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/ptla05/t8decks --> For the top 8 decklists along with Kenji's Life from the Loam Tog build and Antoine Ruel's Classic Tog build.

**Note: I want Laplie, nico, Craze, and any other moderator to delete or post over any inappropriate replies because I don't want this thread to be closed.**

TacoMaster · Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 16

imho, Dredgatog without the Cunning Wishes and Toolbox SB is better than Classic Tog. Sure, Classic Tog doesn't really have a specific "engine" to get going, but I usually get the LftL engine working quickly, and the card advantage generated from this is usually enough to overwhelm your opponent and take the game. Especially if your opponent's running UB Tog. Smile

efridge · Joined: 16 Oct 2005 Posts: 4

i think dredgeatog tends to do alot better in tog's roughest matchups (i.e. goblins, red deck wins, etc) but loses pretty hard in the tog mirror. Just a meta choice i think.

Kaesh · Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 226

UB Tog is definitely better than life tog vs RDW (because it's less fragile) and mirror, however I feel that life tog is beter vs rock (although not by much).

Parshath · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 9

To Tacomaster: Classic Tog can also run Cunning Wish with toolbox SB. I was wondering why Ruel didn't take the Toolbox approach in his Classic. I updated Ruel's version to my liking and implemented the Wish toolbox and it's been working perfectly (especially vs. random rogue decks.) Oh and in the mirror, UB Tog will win. Why? Because most Loam Tog decks depend on Gifts resolving to get the Loam + cyclers engine going and I doubt Gifts will resolve in the mirror. Plus Classic Tog can get to the lethal kill sometimes before you get your engine going. That's why Ruel 3-0'd Kenji =)

To efridge: Loam Tog does have better removal vs Goblins but Classic Tog definately has a better game vs RDW, because it is very fast (faster than the Loam Tog). And Goblins aren't really that good in Extended anymore so I don't think you should expect many matchups vs it.

To Kaesh: You're right and personally I think the ONLY matchup Life Tog has a better shot than UB Tog is vs Rock. Rock really hurts Classic Tog if they get some good draws, not necessarily god draws.

knight_sage · Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 158

Personally i like the deck that billy moreno played madness tog it didn't take as much advantage of the loam engine because he could get some pretty bad dredges over good dredges.

Alucart · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 83

the two decks are different from each other in genre..

dredgeatog is really agro

and tog is control.. they only use the same basic creature.. but they are Different from each other.... as different as Big red is from Sligh...

Parshath · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 9

To Alucart, we're talking about the Loam Tog Kenji used and that is DEFINATELY not aggro. He uses the same creatures Classic Tog uses. This whole discussion is about those two types of Tog.

zero · Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 77

madnesstog uses psychatog and life from the loam engine to draw cards, and it is an agro control deck that abuses the sinergy of card advantage of lotl uses for wild mongrel, psychatog and some madness spells like circular logic, arrogant wurm and basking rootwalla, golgari madness is an agro deck that uses golgari-grave troll, lotl engine and psychatogs , mongrels and other creatures to generate a huge graveyard to smash the oponent with a brawn/wondered psychatog or mongrel with a lot of cards in hand using lotl, dredgatog is a control deck that uses putrefy, cunning wish toolbox, pernicious deed, a few of countermagic, and gifts ungiven to setup the lotl engine and finally classic tog is a control deck that uses cantrip spells/card advantage spells, creature removal, and a solid countermagic to control the board and smash the opponent with a lethal hit of psychatog

SlipKoRn · Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 15

no hagais caso al zero qno tiene ni puta idea,xD Very Happy

Laplie · League Staff Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 545

loran16 · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 10

First of all UB tog is not better than UBG Dredg-a-tog. It just has different matchups.....

First, Dredg-a-tog has a far better matchup against balencing tings. IN certain metagames, (Especially in LA, there were a lot of tings decks including Nassif and Oisio's) this is important. Dredg-a-tog does have a worse time against decks with lots of card drawing and permission, such as classic tog and NO-stick.

Interestingly enough, The Troll-a-Tog deck piloted by Siron, Jones, and Da Costa Cabral, has more life from the loams (3) and no gifts, and still manages to find the engine easily enough. Because of this, more life from the loams increases the decks ability to handle such matchups.

Which tog do you choose? Depends on the metagame in my opinion (though i like Moreno's madness-tog and the troll a tog deck more than the other two Smile

)

Y2Jonline · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 92

I prefer Dredgatog, but I don't like Kenji's list. The Wish plan seems rather weak to me, and I also think that maindeck Deed may not be a good plan (very bad in the mirror and other control matchups, see game 1 vs Ruel for an example), especially since the deck seems solid vs aggro without it. Also, Last Gasp? Why? I would get rid of the Gasps and the Wish plan, move the Deeds to the board, and maindeck some better spot removal and maybe some FoFs to give the deck a bit more reliability in the mirror.

That being said, I think a tuned version of Dredgatog is definitely the best deck in the current Extended.

ChristPunchr · Joined: 01 Sep 2004 Posts: 359

I like how techy the dredgeatog deck is and moreno's list looked pretty good. The classic approach seems more solid
overall. I watched the match and it seemed that Billy misplayed at least once each game. It is understandable against Ruel though,he is a machine.

Parshath · Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 9