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Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund and control-changing effects



 
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund and control-changing effects Reply with quote

Player A puts Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund onto the battlefield, gaining control of player B's dragons. In a multiplayer match, if player A loses the game, what happens to the dragons? Are they exiled or do they return to their owners' control?
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Astarael



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exiled.

800.4a. When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end, and all spells and abilities controlled by that player on the stack cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astarael wrote:
Exiled.

800.4a. When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end, and all spells and abilities controlled by that player on the stack cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.


That quote says they are returned to their owner. "all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end"
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's precisely my point, because even though Karrthus has an effect that allows you to take control of all dragons, that effect is permanent (lasts indefinitely), and not temporary. Even if Karrthus would leave the battlefield before it's controller lost the game, he would still have control of those dragons. Hence my question.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right I can not give you the rules explanation but i can tell you, that when a player loses the game, any permanents you control of his also go. I do not know the rules reason just the answer as I have played multiple games of commander on modo and when ever this has come up that's what happened.
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Astarael



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
Astarael wrote:
Exiled.

800.4a. When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end, and all spells and abilities controlled by that player on the stack cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.


That quote says they are returned to their owner. "all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end"


Yep, I misread. They'd return, not get exiled. I apologise. Even though there is no set time limit on the control effect, it's still a control effect and ends when the player loses the game.

The exile part is more for permanents you've gained control of via things like Beacon of Unrest.
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Right I can not give you the rules explanation but i can tell you, that when a player loses the game, any permanents you control of his also go. I do not know the rules reason just the answer as I have played multiple games of commander on modo and when ever this has come up that's what happened.


I believe the reason for this is so that the person who lost can leave and take all his cards with him. He won't have to stick around and wait for everyone else to finish so he can get his cards back.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

magicman85 wrote:
Quote:
Right I can not give you the rules explanation but i can tell you, that when a player loses the game, any permanents you control of his also go. I do not know the rules reason just the answer as I have played multiple games of commander on modo and when ever this has come up that's what happened.


I believe the reason for this is so that the person who lost can leave and take all his cards with him. He won't have to stick around and wait for everyone else to finish so he can get his cards back.


Yeah from a practical stand point that makes sense.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
magicman85 wrote:
Quote:
Right I can not give you the rules explanation but i can tell you, that when a player loses the game, any permanents you control of his also go. I do not know the rules reason just the answer as I have played multiple games of commander on modo and when ever this has come up that's what happened.


I believe the reason for this is so that the person who lost can leave and take all his cards with him. He won't have to stick around and wait for everyone else to finish so he can get his cards back.


Yeah from a practical stand point that makes sense.


It is also irrelevant to the subject at hand. The question regards cards which the losing player controlled with a control-changing effect. Cards of his which are controlled by another player are a separate topic.
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llamatron2



Joined: 18 Sep 2012
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They would return based on that ruling.

The key here is that there is a difference between "Owner" and "Controller".

If you started the game with said card in your deck, you are the "Owner".

If you have said card in play under your control, you are the "Controller".

A great example of this wording would be the new blue enchantment, "Conjured Currency".

It reads as such: "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may exchange control of Conjured Currency and target permanent you neither own nor control."
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