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Humility



 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Magic Rulings
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Tritemio



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: Humility Reply with quote

what append if with Humility , i enchant a crature with Gigantiform ?

and if i use Kessig Wolf Run can i give trample to a my creature?


Last edited by Tritemio on Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The humility cancels out any pump effects even other enchantments. So, if you cast the gigantiform and the kessig wolf run on a creature, it would still be a 1/1.
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Terri



Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@masso thats wrong all pump effects are still working with humility in play if you enchant a creature with gigantiform it will be 9/9 but without trample. the same with kessing wolf run it gets +X/+0 but no trample.
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Frozen_Fire
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A layer question. If you want to know more about layers, follow this link: http://mtgsalvation.com/836-cranial-insertion-order-of-operations.html

Now, let's answer your question:

Gigantiform makes a creature 8/8 (layer 7b) and gives it trample (layer 6).

Humility makes all creatures 1/1 (layer 7b) and makes them lose every ability (layer 6).

Kessig Wolf run gives +X/+0 to a creature (layer 7c) and adds trample (layer 6).

So, 7b always applies before 7c (so the creature will be firstly 1/1 and then will get +X/+0), but when the interaction involves the same layer, timestamps matter, so it will depend on which effect resolved last and/or which permanent came last on the battlefield. Some examples:

-First Humility, then Gigantiform: 8/8 Trample
-First Gigantiform, then Humility: 1/1 no abilities
-First Humility, then Wolf Run resolves: 1/1 with +x/+0 trample
-First Wolf Run resolves, then Humility: 1/1 with +x/+0, but no trample!

Greetings,
Frozen_Fire Smile
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tchiseen



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frozen_Fire wrote:
A layer question. If you want to know more about layers, follow this link: http://mtgsalvation.com/836-cranial-insertion-order-of-operations.html

Now, let's answer your question:

Gigantiform makes a creature 8/8 (layer 7b) and gives it trample (layer 6).

Humility makes all creatures 1/1 (layer 7b) and makes them lose every ability (layer 6).

Kessig Wolf run gives +X/+0 to a creature (layer 7c) and adds trample (layer 6).

So, 7b always applies before 7c (so the creature will be firstly 1/1 and then will get +X/+0), but when the interaction involves the same layer, timestamps matter, so it will depend on which effect resolved last and/or which permanent came last on the battlefield. Some examples:

-First Humility, then Gigantiform: 8/8 Trample
-First Gigantiform, then Humility: 1/1 no abilities
-First Humility, then Wolf Run resolves: 1/1 with +x/+0 trample
-First Wolf Run resolves, then Humility: 1/1 with +x/+0, but no trample!

Greetings,
Frozen_Fire Smile


That's a great explanation, well done.
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Selkie



Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just remember it that Elspeth is the only thing that can get over a humility-moat combo Very Happy
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot more than Elspeth can go over it. For example, Inkmoth and Blinkmoth Nexus.
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Tritemio



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hummm so is the same with more complex ability like Bear Umbra?
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tritemio wrote:
hummm so is the same with more complex ability like Bear Umbra?

With Bear Umbra, the enchanted creature would always get the +2/+2. Timestamps would make the difference between it having the ability or not.
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R0B



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys have it all screwed up. No matter what order the cards are put down, the creature would be 8/8 with trample if you enchanted it with Gigantiform. Humility just makes the creature 1/1. It has no effect on what the enchantment does. The creature is basically a 1/1 enchanted with Gigantiform no matter how you do it, making it an 8/8 with trample.

With Wolf Run, however, this is different. If you pump then put Humility down, the creature is 1/1 without trample. If Humility is put down before, the creature gets the bonus.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROB this is incorrect. Frozen_Fire has this correct. If you review the layers section of the comp rules you will understand better. Frozen_Fire even described in context which layer applies where.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gigantiform is not a pump effect, it's a P/T setting effect. Therefor it applies in the same layer as Humility and is dependent on timestamp order. Same goes for adding or removing abilities.

Pump effects, like Kessig Wolf Run are always applied after P/T setting abilities, so the +X/+0 from the Wolf Run will always be applied on top of the P/T setting, no matter what timestamps.

Just like Frozen_Fire said. He really was correct. I'm going to close this one, since the question was answered. If you have similar questions, make a new thread.
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