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"Land destruction just is not fun to play against"



 
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: "Land destruction just is not fun to play against" Reply with quote

So we got rid of stone rain. Hello 180 players at worlds running goodstuff.dec.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly my point. Stone rain and counterspell get dropped from the base set and you get 140 people bringing jund , with another 40 bringing different color junk designed to beat it.

End result, 180 players using junk to compete for the world championship.

Still, better than having it won by a 5 colour brew that drops 6cc dragons, 7cc sorceries, and runs 8 walls.


Last edited by Thanik on Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stone Rain destroys your ressources.

Jund also destroys your ressources (hand, creatures)

Counters destroy your ressources (permission).

All of that kind messes with how the opponents deck can play his own deck, without interaction. WotC wants more interaction, so printed less permission (lands,cards,spells,creatures) spells.
This lead to cards that would require permission effects to be handled, but there are too few. Therefore your complaint.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
Stone Rain destroys your ressources.

Jund also destroys your ressources (hand, creatures)

Counters destroy your ressources (permission).

All of that kind messes with how the opponents deck can play his own deck, without interaction. WotC wants more interaction, so printed less permission (lands,cards,spells,creatures) spells.
This lead to cards that would require permission effects to be handled, but there are too few. Therefore your complaint.


Yeah I know the reasoning behind it but by doing everything they can to shut out some archetypes you really are left with people throwing together the best cards they can find with no real aim.

I don't know, maybe that's what they intend for the game, but after 2 seasons of competing to see who can make or kill the most men off one card, it's feeling a little stale.
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Jag4



Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Blue has been the most dominating colour in most formats over time and still is in some, it's only fair that other colours deserve their time in the sun.


I think blue will get more counterspells in time, more along the lines of remand which is often regarded as a 'fair' counterspell, and good LD is still in the format, Goblin Ruinblaster anyone?


Jag
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fundamentally I think you're saying that the state of standard is really bad now.

I don't necessarily agree. In the past I usually saw 2 "best" decks in a standard format. Everything else was rogue junk.

Look at this worlds. Yea, you had a ton of Jund, but you also had players doing well with everything from Bant to Naya to mono-white to vampires to turbo fog to mana ramp land destruction. Wow, this is the most diverse field I've ever seen.

While playing a deck like Jund feels very non-skill intensive, it is what it is.

That's my primary complaint about standard right now. the cascade mechanic makes the game so random. Furthermore, Jund's mana base is pretty terrible, which makes the deck even more luck based.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm really just throwing some stuff out for discussion. I don't mind standard atm, although I disagree that the field is diverse. 2 best decks is better than 1, and jund was played by over twice as many people as the other 'best' deck. In fact, it's so good that almost as many people brought 'jund hate' as they did 'the other best deck', yet it still posted a winning record.

I do agree about the randomness of the cascade mechanic though.

I don't know if it's power creep or what, but nowadays it seems like every card at 4+cc is just a massive swing. You can be at 6 with your opponent at 20, with an empty hand and board vs his grip of 4 and a 4/4 flyer, rip something off the top and just win.

Sure previously you had a few cards that were even worse, but you couldn't run 10-12 of them because you'd be stretching your mana base so thin that a stone rain would annihilate you.

In fact, I recall packing 4 teferi's response in the board playing nosis, because random land destruction decks on the play were the only thing that could beat my starting 60 even after boarding since I was teched out for the mirror. 4 cards in the board dedicated to countering an archetype that no one was even playing, just because it threatened my 3color manabase.

Nowadays they're going to get a chance to play at least one or two two for one cards before you get a chance to start locking down or destroying the manabase. Still, at least your land destruction cards are two for ones as well...

Oh and yeah the ruinblaster is amazing. He is however, a pretty good example of the retarded number of two, three, four, and even 8 for one cards around right now. We've seen what happens when you rip a cruel ultimatum.

How did LSV put it? "Yeah previously the goodstuff decks were never really competitive, but now the 'good stuff' is good enough"? Something like that.

I think it's not only due to the fact that the good stuff is good enough, but that so many archetypes that 'aren't fun' have been basically taken out of print. So you're left with aggro hoping the other guy doesn't draw one of the two to four fat in the back, efficient lifelink creatures they keep printing (because that's fun...), and decks that try to get at least two for one off every card. Of course attrition decks are always going to trash aggro, so half the field brings it to worlds.

I'm sure there are mad deckbuilders out there proving me wrong right now though! I love that about magic Smile
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SJM



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My primary complaint would focus more on the fact that Wizards has taken an overly authoritarian stance on the game. They don't print cards, they build decks then print the cards to make the decks.

Vampires is a perfect example of this.

They should just print cards and let the pieces fall where they may. Maybe not to the extent that they used to, but at least a little bit.

Every card coming out these days that isn't a creature or a way to kill a creature just seems wrong in some way. It's like they had a good idea for a card then they said, "well, this might get broken in some way, let's make it trash" and then they proceed to make it terrible.

Don't even get me started on mythic rares.
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Thanik



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree to an extent. They probably put a little too much focus on creating synergies, so that decks basically build themselves. They do throw out some cards that don't necessarily go that way however. I think they probably underestimated reveillark for example, and blightning would be an exception to the rule.

It's also possible that after 15 years of magic (and magic articles), the community has developed to a point where there are many many more people who see the synergies than would have before.

I am coming from the same perspective as you I think. Take a break, come back and look at the new cards, put a deck together and find out that everyone is already running it. If everyone individually comes up with decklists that are close to identical, then wizards is basically building the decks for us.

Personally I'm just tired of seeing variations of siege gang commander and nekrataal being printed over and over again. It's like they're asking themselves 'how many card advantage cards can we attach to bodies in this set?'

For a good example of what I mean, in this article he writes about how ravnica limited being defined by strong attrition cards at common and uncommon was bad for the format http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/21 .

Yet all the jund decks in the top 8 at worlds ran four common and eleven uncommon two for ones or four for ones. Some of them could net you a six for one if you got really lucky. They all also ran either nine or ten potential two (or more) for ones at rare.

With so many attrition cards and so many cheap fatassed lifelink creatures being printed, aggro is in danger of going the way of permission. At least they're printing some high quality burn.

Put it like this. When you can put together a deck where 40% of the cards you draw are two for ones, that makes ancestral recall look pretty average. Unless it's in your deck.
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Jag4



Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda think that they will be a push towards mono coloured deck over the next few sets, but mono colour decks often need good artifacts (Cursed Scroll, Masticore, Powder Keg) to make up for their limitations, so we'll see.


Jag
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