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Charms are Overrated?


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AkYo



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 259

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Charms are Overrated? Reply with quote

Why do people think charms are better than they really are..
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jared



Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They aren't overrated at all. Sure some are worse but that the thing is they give you options to pick what you want. The best thing for a controlling player is to make the right choice. The charms, like so many other good cards, give you the chance to outplay your opponent and that is def a good thing.
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LordLink



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because 3 Mana Instant Speed Graveyard Hating Universal Spot Removal + Other options has always been freaking amazing. Find me another removal spell in standard that boasts that.

Instant Board Sweeper

Instant Draw for permission decks + Discard/Blossom hate

Then Naya and Grixis aren't really being used in constructed. But I hear Removal/Bounce/Overrun in one card is pretty strong in limited. And Naya Charm reads "win" in stalemate situations, acts as removal or recurs a bomb.
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wickety6



Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, flexibility is the key. sucks to have removal against combo, or counter against aggro, or disenchant verse aggro, or etc, etc, etc
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trueeevil



Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

naya charm not being played. Incinerate to creature/regrowth/tap all their creatures isn't good enough? I play it, its won so many games.
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center
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 440

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

b/c a UGW puterfy is good
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can Bant Charm, Cryptic Command and Primal Command in the same deck be bad?
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nonroker



Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having options is good. Especially if the options are worth playing. The charms have made Guttaral response a much better card since 3 of them contain blue.
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TugaChampion



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enyeez wrote:
3 mana for a pyroclasm, sure, if it had been on the draw 2 / discard 2, I would have played it.


Nice way to mess up the colour pie!

And the 3 different mana in their costs is irrelevant. In this T2 it's played like bottle gnomes.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The charms are actually a lot more specific than you think. They read more like:

Counter target Cryptic Command/deal with target Chameleon Colossus or Demigod of Revenge/Destroy target Relic of Progenitus

Deal 3 damage to target Boggart Ram-Gang or Cloudgoat Ranger/counter target Makeshift Mannequin, Torrent of Souls or re-use target key card/Deal lethal damage next turn

Destroy target Bitterblossom or Oblivion Ring/Speed up self/Slow down opponent

Bounce target Oblivion Ring, Bitterblossom or cip tapped land/Kill target Ashenmoor Gouger or Mistbind Clique/Deal lethal damage this turn

Counter target Makeshift Mannequin, Torrent of Souls or Reveillark/Counter target Mirrorweave or Garruk Overrun/Make target Kitchen Finks extremely annoying
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TugaChampion



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Jund Charm is probably the worst one in constructed right now. Pyroclasm is nice and it's an instant. The 2 +1+1 counters can be used as a trick but you won't use it that much. Still it's there when you need it. Removing the graveyards well right now it's not that important but it can sometimes screw your opp when his reveillark dies,

But Bant Charm given the mana fixing available is better than Putrefy. The creatures go to the bottom is better because of cards like mannequim and reveillark and it also counters instants. Bant charm is never dead. It's good in all match ups except maybe against some combo decks that resolve around sorceries.

Esper Charm is great too specially without Ancestral Vision in T2. Draw 2 at instant speed (making you draw 2 only turn 3 almost every game if you play it and mulldrifter), discard 2 can also be pretty useful and having a maindeck answer for bitterblossom and oblivion ring without being a dead card is very good too.

Naya Charm doesn't see much play either but a pseuso cryptic command that can kill creatures and return something from the graveyard can be pretty good too.

Grixis Charm is amazing too. Only bad thing is that it doesn't kill Colossus. -4-4 to a creature will be the most used but sometimes boomerang is useful too and fortify for a surprise win is also great in certain situations.
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LordLink



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Squall Line was infinitely better than Hurricane last T2. Same with Jund Charm and Pyroclasm.

Instant Speed ALONE is worth the extra mana in most meta's.

This is all assuming you're playing the appropriate colours for the charm of course.

And why did you compare charms to commands? they're completely different.
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jared



Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matter that you play sloooow lands. You still blow out most aggresive decks simply because you let the commit the mana to a guy for a turn instead of them adding to their board position, such as pumping figure of destiny. Their already done for their turn and havent even reached the second mainphase and you're playing the game whenever you NEED to. If you're playing charms you're more than likely (not neccessarily every time) play control. You can stand to play the slow game simply off the back of cards such as the charms by always having options.
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OldBear



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically as has been said is you are paying the extra for the luxury of choice. This gives you options, which does not allow you to outplay your opponent it gives you more chance to mess up infact as its more decisions to make, making a good decision is not outplaying your opponent its just not messing up.

The reason you want options in a control deck is it allows you to get the edge on the numbers game, if you have cards that can deal with a variety of threats, or even deal with a specific threat and devlop your game by drawing cards or something, then that card can fufill two roles in your deck giving you space for other extra cards (ie more win conditions, additional card specific answers) you would otherwise not be able to play as it would leave you with insufficent answers to some relevant threat. It also allows you you to play more answers to a specific threat than your opponent can play threats with out risking having alot of dead cards.

Ie 4 of which ever the condem charm is I do not know until they come out on modo and 2 condem and it is reasonable to expect more of the time than not when your opponent has demigod you will have an answer. Whilst with 4 condem is is less so and your game is alot narrower.
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NOMERCYEVER



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enyeez quit magic, please.

You are so wrong that it kills me.
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