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Top 5 Question



 
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Tritemio



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Top 5 Question Reply with quote

1. Frogtosser Banneret reduce also the prowl cost of rougue spell?

2. If i have 2 Vigors , they are indestructibles? Can i Put 2 counter on my creatures for each 1 damage?

3.a I activate Mindslaver , in my opponent controlled turn i make him play one of his spell, can I in response play Condescend by 0 and choose to don'y pay 0?

3.b Same case, but this time i make him play Fact or Fiction , Can I make a 0 cards pile and a 5 cards pile and make him choose the pile of 0 cards?

3.c I play a spell, my opponent Negate it, then i play mindslaver and activate it. Can i choose to don't pay Pact's cost either if he have mana?

4.a My opponet play extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, he show my and remove an other Moment's Peace, look the top ten cards of my deck (there aren't other Moment's Peace) then give him my deck. He give a look on my deck then give it back. few turn later i draw a Moment's Peace , he attack , i play the peace and the next turn I win the game. He accuse me that i have fraud him. who is wrong?

4.b Extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, Can i turn face up a willbender? Can i choose his Extirpate? He must or may remove all Extirpate from his deck?

5. I have in play Chronozoa then i turn face up Vesuvan Shapeshifter copyng Chronozoa, he have time counters? If he was put into the graveyard put into play two tokens? And this tokens are a copy of Chronozoa or Vesuvan Shapeshifter?


Last edited by Tritemio on Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:33 am; edited 4 times in total
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Raybelfast



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

think so

they cannot be dealt damage. they can still die (Terror, wrath etc)

your opponent cant play spells in the turn you control so he cheated

he cannot play spells in the turn you control but yes you can choose the 0 pile after casting fact or fiction

i dont think you can intentionally lose the game. judge for that one

both of you, he knew how many copies there were and should
have told you to remove them (u should have removed them)

yess wilbinder can target extirpate so you can choose a pate if its in his graveyard

two copies of chrono i think
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Taoofss



Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raybelfast wrote:
think so

they cannot be dealt damage. they can still die (Terror, wrath etc)

your opponent cant play spells in the turn you control so he cheated

he cannot play spells in the turn you control but yes you can choose the 0 pile after casting fact or fiction

i dont think you can intentionally lose the game. judge for that one

both of you, he knew how many copies there were and should
have told you to remove them (u should have removed them)

yess wilbinder can target extirpate so you can choose a pate if its in his graveyard

two copies of chrono i think


please dont answer questions you dont have the answers for. your answers are terrible. I especially like the one where you claim indestructable creatures can be wrathed away. TNA for 2x dscs. wraith next turn. yea like that would work.

/fail
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cloysterd



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I'm pretty sure it does but I'm not totally positive.

2. They aren't indestructible, but they won't take any damage. The damage to your other creatures is only prevented once, so they only get one set of counters.

3. You make all your opponent's choices when you activate Mindslaver. So yes you can choose to pay 0, yes you can make 0 and 5 piles, and yes you can choose not to pay Pact's upkeep. The only thing you can't do is take mana burn (but you can still tap all his lands).

4a. I'm not sure I understand everything you wrote, but if you showed him your whole deck and he didn't find every copy, it's legal. Searches can fail.

4b. Yes you can turn up Willbender. No you can't target Extirpate, because it doesn't get put into the graveyard until after it resolves. And as mentioned above, he doesn't have to find and remove any more copies if he doesn't want to.

5. I'm not totally certain. I know it wouldn't have any time counters, and I think it would stay around indefinitely because Vanishing reads "When the last time counter is removed..." If it dies you would get 2 tokens, and I believe they would be token copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter copying Chronozoa.
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Top 5 Question Reply with quote

Tritemio wrote:
1. Frogtosser Banneret reduce also the prowl cost of rougue spell?

2. If i have 2 Vigors , they are indestructibles? Can i Put 2 counter on my creatures for each 1 damage?

3.a I activate Mindslaver , in my opponent controlled turn i make him play one of his spell, can I in response play Condescend by 0 and choose to don'y pay 0?

3.b Same case, but this time i make him play Fact or Fiction , Can I make a 0 cards pile and a 5 cards pile and make him choose the pile of 0 cards?

3.c I play a spell, my opponent Negate it, then i play mindslaver and activate it. Can i choose to don't pay Pact's cost either if he have mana?

4.a My opponet play extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, he show my and remove an other Moment's Peace, look the top ten cards of my deck (there aren't other Moment's Peace) then give him my deck. He give a look on my deck then give it back. few turn later i draw a Moment's Peace , he attack , i play the peace and the next turn I win the game. He accuse me that i have fraud him. who is wrong?

4.b Extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, Can i turn face up a willbender? Can i choose his Extirpate? He must or may remove all Extirpate from his deck?

5. I have in play Chronozoa then i turn face up Vesuvan Shapeshifter copyng Chronozoa, he have time counters? If he was put into the graveyard put into play two tokens? And this tokens are a copy of Chronozoa or Vesuvan Shapeshifter?


1. No, it reduces the CC, not an ability, kinda like ninjitsu

2. i dunno.

3a,b,c. Yes, you make all decision for the turn. So you can choose to not pay zero. You can choose to make a zero pile. and you can choose not to pay the 5, and have them lose

4a. Since it says search a hidden field (because it doesn't say reveal) if he didn't take them out, it's his problem. like a sac. land. you can look for something, but not find anything.

4b. yes you can, morph doesn't use the stack and another Ex. would be a legal target

5. He wouldn't have time counters because he is already in play, and would die. Yes, you would get the 2 tokens. they would be copies of chronozoa
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4b. Yes you can turn up Willbender. No you can't target Extirpate, because it doesn't get put into the graveyard until after it resolves. And as mentioned above, he doesn't have to find and remove any more copies if he doesn't want to.

I am confused. is he talking about the same Ex. or another one?
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Tritemio



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@cloysterd You are great!

4a. yes i Show him my deck and he spent his time to look how my deck wins instead of remove cards.

5. So I have 2 token that are facedown Vesuvan Shapeshifter copying Chronozoa? Can i turn it face up?
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cloysterd



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the tokens would be face-up Shapeshifters copying Chronozoa (with 3 time counters). Whether or not tokens can be turned face down I have no idea.
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Nere



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Frogtosser Banneret in fact changes the cost of prowl since it is an alternate cost.
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Karic



Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Yes
2. Damage would still be dealt to both of them because they're both named "Vigor". Same reason you can't remove an Ichorid to return another Ichorid. "If damage would be dealt to a creature you control other than Vigor..."
3a. Yes
3b. Yes
3c. You can't make your opponent not pay for pact of negation. It's not a may ability; it's a forced ability that is also a triggered ability. It's like making your opponent not use Dark Confidant. You can, however, respond to the triggered ability by playing spells and making it so that he has no mana available to pay for pact of negation so that he can't fulfill the triggered ability. (I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I'm sure enough to add this answer. You should consult a higher level judge)
4a. If your opponent failed to find all copies you can't be blamed for drawing any more.
4b. You can use willbender on split second spells. You can choose your opponent's extirpates. Your opponent will have to search/shuffle, but doesn't have to remove anything from the game except the card you targeted in your opponent's graveyard.
5. When you turn shapeshifter face up to copy a creature with vanishing counters it doesn't get vanishing counters. You would have to play it from your hand and copy a creature for it to get vanishing counters. If you turn your shapeshifter fact up and copy a creature with vanishing shapeshifter gets no counters and because you can't remove any you don't have to sacrifice it to vanishing. For example, if you turn Vesuvan shapeshifter face up to copy a Calciderm, it's a 5/5 shrouded dude until you turn it face down or it leaves the play zone. If you shapeshifter it and your shapeshifter dies and has no vanishing counters, you get two copies of shapeshifter (I believe, but not 100% on) who then have to choose what to come into play as or they're 0/0's.

Also - if you copy a creature with vanishing when it comes into play and you turn it face down later it still has vanishing (it's the same creature) and when it runs out of vanishing counters will die regardless of the creature that it's currently copying/if it's face down or not.

To all the people who posted answers that are wrong, please don't. You're making it more difficult to get correct answers.
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Tom_Sieve



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, the sheer amount of responses on this thing is staggering. Especially when there are so many people giving some wrong answers and some right ones! >.<

I'm not a judge, but I'm going to source the answers to these questions- or at least, as many as I can.

1. Yes. "It reduces the total play cost of Goblin and Rogue spells. Evoke and prowl are alternate play costs and they can be reduced by this effect."
(Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Frogtosser+Banneret)

2. No, they are not indestructible; damage is still dealt to either one, and "destroy' effects still send them screaming to the graveyard unless another card says otherwise. HOWEVER, while two are in play they are covered by each other's ability. Which means, yes, if either one takes damage you prevent it and put that many counters on the one taking damage.
(Source: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=987904)

3a. Yes. "You get to make every decision the other player would have made during that turn." This includes whether or not that player pays 'X'- or, in this case 0.
(Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Mindslaver)

3b. Yes. Once more, you get to make every decision the other player would've made during that turn.
(Source: See 3a.)

3c. I assume you mean 'Pact of Negation' when you say Negate (Which is now a spell. =x). This is a bit trickier, but the short answer is 'Yes'. According to the Starcitygames ruling on Mindslaver, "You make all decisions for the other player's triggered abilities, including what they target and any decisions made when they resolve.". According to the rulings for Pact of Negation from the same site, "Also, your opponent is only forced to pay the cost if he has that mana in his mana pool. He is not forced to tap his lands for mana or generate mana in any way." In this case, since you aren't required to tap mana for your opponent, you can force him to lose the game by choosing to not tap the lands for mana.
(Sources: See 3a., and http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Pact+of+Negation)

4a. Your opponent is incorrect. "If (the) card was in the library or hand of (you), then yes, (you) can play it as (He is) not required to find all copies of cards in hidden zones like a library or hand." Yeah, I had to alter the quote somewhat because it referred to a reversed position, but when in doubt look at the source I'm sending. Your opponent isn't required to find all copies of cards in a hidden zone, which means if he misses a few? It's his fault. =B
(Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Extirpate)

4b. Yes, you may turn Willbender face-up while Extirpate is on the stack because morphing a face-down card doesn't use the stack. No, you may not choose his just-played extirpate because it isn't a legal target; it doesn't go into the graveyard until it resolves, and that doesn't happen until its effect does.

Even if he did have an extirpate in his graveyard that you could target, he would only have to remove that and the other extirpates from the game. "First of all, your opponent does not have to find all copies of this card in his own hand. When searching for a card, you do not have to find any copies of a card in a hidden zone. This player may have to reveal his hand, but his hand is still a hidden zone. This is also what prevents your opponent from having to find and remove all copies of this card from his library, as that is also a hidden zone."
(Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Extirpate)

5. "As this Shapeshifter did not come into play as a copy of Chronozoa, it will not have any time counters on it. This means that you will not have to sacrifice it when its Vanishing triggered ability resolves, as you are can't remove any counters from it. It also means that if this Shapeshifter / Chronozoa goes to the graveyard, you will get two copies of Chronozoa. As these copies do come into play, they will have time counters on them. These copies will also have the upkeep triggered ability that allows them to be turned face down as well, but they won't have a Morph cost, so if you do turn them face down, you won't be able to unmorph them."
(Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Chronozoa)

I realize that I've used starcitygames as the source for the vast majority of these questions; this is mostly out of convenience. Otherwise, I would have to find a judge (Probably on the chat & play room) and put him through a lightning-round of questions. Not that it'd be so terrible, but I might as well have just shown him the thread and gone along my merry way. =B In either case, enjoi.
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ant900



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2525
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 5 Question Reply with quote

Tritemio wrote:
1. Frogtosser Banneret reduce also the prowl cost of rougue spell?

yes, prowl is just an alternate casting cost, it will reduce it

Quote:

2. If i have 2 Vigors , they are indestructibles? Can i Put 2 counter on my creatures for each 1 damage?

if you have 2 vigors they will not be indestructible, but they will also not take damage, also the creatures will only get 1 counter since it is a replacement effect

Quote:

3.a I activate Mindslaver , in my opponent controlled turn i make him play one of his spell, can I in response play Condescend by 0 and choose to don'y pay 0?

of course you can, if you can choose to not pay 1, why can't you choose to not pay 0?

Quote:

3.b Same case, but this time i make him play Fact or Fiction , Can I make a 0 cards pile and a 5 cards pile and make him choose the pile of 0 cards?

yes you can, the card doesn't say there has to be cards in one of the piles
Quote:

3.c I play a spell, my opponent Negate it, then i play mindslaver and activate it. Can i choose to don't pay Pact's cost either if he have mana?

i believe you meant pact of negation, in that case, again there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that
Quote:

4.a My opponet play extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, he show my and remove an other Moment's Peace, look the top ten cards of my deck (there aren't other Moment's Peace) then give him my deck. He give a look on my deck then give it back. few turn later i draw a Moment's Peace , he attack , i play the peace and the next turn I win the game. He accuse me that i have fraud him. who is wrong?

since extirpate does not say reveal, it is still is a hidden zone. If he doesn't find a moments peace, his fault
Quote:

4.b Extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, Can i turn face up a willbender? Can i choose his Extirpate? He must or may remove all Extirpate from his deck?

if there is already an extirpate in a graveyard, then yes. he can not have the extirpate target itself, because 1. spells can not target themselves, and 2. extirpate isn't in the graveyard
Quote:

5. I have in play Chronozoa then i turn face up Vesuvan Shapeshifter copyng Chronozoa, he have time counters? If he was put into the graveyard put into play two tokens? And this tokens are a copy of Chronozoa or Vesuvan Shapeshifter?

since the shapeshifter didn't come into play, it wont get the counters, but when he goes to the graveyard you will get 2 copies of chronozoa with an ability to turn it face down as a 2/2 (which you cannot flip face up)

for most of your questions, you just need to ask yourself, "Why not?" that is what I tell most people
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 5 Question Reply with quote

Ok, I don't believe anybody has given all the correct answers at once, but in between the eight or so posters I think I saw all the correct answers Smile.

Tritemio wrote:
1. Frogtosser Banneret reduce also the prowl cost of rougue spell?

Yes. Prowl is an alternative cost, but you are still playing a spell. The Bannerets don't care how, why or from what zone you're playing a spell, just that you are playing a spell with the correct creature types. The cost you pay when you play a card via Prowl will be reduced.

Note that the actual Prowl cost (the cost printed on the card) doesn't change, just like the mana cost of a spell never changes. But the total cost (the cost you actually have to pay) is reduced.

Tritemio wrote:
2. If i have 2 Vigors, they are indestructibles? Can i Put 2 counter on my creatures for each 1 damage?

They are not indestructible, that is something else entirely. But yes, they will prevent the damage that would be dealt to each other and replace it with counters.

When something uses its name it really means 'this permanent' not 'everything with this name'. If it means to include everything with the same name it'll be worded as Escaped Shapeshifter (the Oracle text).

And no, you can't put two counters on the creatures. Only one Vigor can prevent the damage and replace it with counters. The other one will not have anything to replace and thus fails to do anything.

Tritemio wrote:
3.a I activate Mindslaver , in my opponent controlled turn i make him play one of his spell, can I in response play Condescend by 0 and choose to don't pay 0?

Yes, that all works fine. You make all decisions for him and not paying 0 is such a decision.

Tritemio wrote:
3.b Same case, but this time i make him play Fact or Fiction , Can I make a 0 cards pile and a 5 cards pile and make him choose the pile of 0 cards?

Yes, same answer. You can have him make any decision you want, however stupid it is.

Tritemio wrote:
3.c I play a spell, my opponent Negate it, then i play mindslaver and activate it. Can i choose to don't pay Pact's cost either if he have mana?

Well, it depends on what you mean by 'has the mana'. Having untapped lands is not the same as having mana. You can choose not generate any mana (by tapping lands) and have him fail at paying the upkeep cost (and thus lose the game). But if, for whatever reason, he already has the mana in his mana pool (a very unlikely scenario though), he has to pay the cost and you thus can't make him 'fail' at it. In most cases though, yes, he'll lose.

Tritemio wrote:
4.a My opponet play extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, he show my and remove an other Moment's Peace, look the top ten cards of my deck (there aren't other Moment's Peace) then give him my deck. He give a look on my deck then give it back. few turn later i draw a Moment's Peace , he attack , i play the peace and the next turn I win the game. He accuse me that i have fraud him. who is wrong?

He was. He played the Extirpate, it was his responsibility to find all the copies of Moment's Peace. It's not very nice if you 'forget' one on purpose, but in the end, he should check better. You can fail to find something in the library...

Tritemio wrote:
4.b Extirpate target my Moment's Peace into the graveyard, Can i turn face up a willbender? Can i choose his Extirpate? He must or may remove all Extirpate from his deck?

You can turn Willbender face-up, changing the target to any card in any library. Extirpate is still on the stack at this point, so you can't choose that, but you could choose another Extirpate in his graveyard. Sadly, he still controls the spell, so he does the searching. Since he searches a hidden zone (his hand and library) he can simply fail to find any copies in there. He has to remove the targetted card and any copy in the graveyard, though.

Tritemio wrote:
5. I have in play Chronozoa then i turn face up Vesuvan Shapeshifter copyng Chronozoa, he have time counters? If he was put into the graveyard put into play two tokens? And this tokens are a copy of Chronozoa or Vesuvan Shapeshifter?

Vesuvan Shapeshifter is not coming into play, so it doesn't get any time counters. When the VS (copying the Chronozoa) would go to the graveyard, you get two copies of the Vs/Chronozoa. That is; a Chronozoa with the 'at the beginning of your upkeep you may turn this face-down'. I would not recommend doing so however, since that will end the copy effect and they will not be able to turn face-up again.

Edit: Well, ok, now there are two completely correct answers. Stupid slow responding on work...
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