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Forums of Magic-League: Free Online tcg playing; casual or tournament play.
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| Have you tried out the newest Sept 2009 release of OCTGN 2.0 yet? |
| Yes |
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33% |
[ 2 ] |
| No |
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66% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 6 |
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KeySam
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 619
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 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Craze wrote: |
open source DOES mean people can hack it easier, as you can't hack something that you can't see the code too which is why for the longest time ML had programmers but no way to update Apprentice.
If the user is given the source code they don't even need to manipulate it, all they need to do is build a separate program to interact with it. Similar to BW or hamachi this would merely be a port that the information that goes between programs goes through.
Think of it as a train. Your program is a station and you send your train through a railroad to another person's "station." Now think of bw or hamachi as a stop between the two stations. If your train stops there and comes back to you, you wouldn't have a clue. And better yet if your station did a "version check" on the other station, it'd come up normal(if not edited from the cheat program) because his station is the exact same as yours. |
To the first bold lined, wow i wonder where are the hacks from all public games come from. Now a bit more serious, having the program code is obviously good for someone who wants to cheat, all i said if its written right it doesnt make it easier.
The second bold lined, thisway you could goaround a version check(although Hamachi is something completly different), the problem is if ClarkKant is right and the host makes all the math,
its almost impoisible to cheat from the client, since you would need to hack into the server. Of course it totaly depends on how its written, but people that say omfg its open source, its soo easy to hack, just dont realy know what their talking about.
KeySam |
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center
Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| There is the whole issue of this league never using this even if it was a great program. Whatever GO is called now would be the leagues choice considering the ties to the programer. |
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imafag
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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I've also tried octgn2 and can say it has potential. Downside is that the progress it's making isn't fast albeit it's steady and certainly faster than with Magic Workstation.
Does anyone know what's the status of GO? I haven't heard about it in a while and I'm starting to wonder if it's same vaporware in a sense MWS has become. |
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Jorbes
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 309
Location: Netherland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Esp_1 wrote: |
Does anyone know what's the status of GO? I haven't heard about it in a while and I'm starting to wonder if it's same vaporware in a sense MWS has become. |
Im right here my friend!
I had a new test release planned for the first week of 2008, but the powers that be (my boss) have dumped me in a hotel for 3 weeks to educate myself for a new assignment.
GO is now called OnlinePlayTable (OPT) (there were many reasons for this change, IRC highlighting being one of them as well as a proper google index and some pun you can have with the 'word' opt)
Ontopic:
Congrats on the OCTGN 2.0 release, Im sure it's a neat upgrade.. But again, the opensource will make it unsuitable for competitive play.. Now, Im not saying it's 100% cheatable, but people will always wonder if the player who just pwned them, used a modified version or whatnot. |
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Apocalypser
Joined: 05 Jun 2005
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I think i read it somewhere that neither the host nor the other player ever "knew" what was in their hands, etc; the information was split between them.
I used to play mtgplay a long long time ago and it was nice.
When mtgplay "died", i stopped playing with it and after some time i tried octgn but it sucked. The biggest flaw was and probably still is the deck editor which sucked. hard.
I'll give octgn 2 a try and see how it fares. |
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Craze
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5647
Location: Indiana, U
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| KeySam wrote: |
To the first bold lined, wow i wonder where are the hacks from all public games come from. Now a bit more serious, having the program code is obviously good for someone who wants to cheat, all i said if its written right it doesnt make it easier. |
Being as closed source makes it impossible to program a cheat program to run along with the application would make me say that open source does indeed make it easier as it makes it possible.
| KeySam wrote: | The second bold lined, thisway you could goaround a version check(although Hamachi is something completly different), the problem is if ClarkKant is right and the host makes all the math,
its almost impoisible to cheat from the client, since you would need to hack into the server. Of course it totaly depends on how its written, but people that say omfg its open source, its soo easy to hack, just dont realy know what their talking about.
KeySam |
No hamachi is not totally different. It acts as a server to allow people to connect to that server then to each other THROUGH that server. While its for a different reason, bw does the same thing.
When using either of the two. You send your info to the secondary program(hamachi, bw) then they send it to the other player. The difference between hamachi and bw is your sending the info to hamachi to give to the other player because a firewall stops you from doing it yourself. Your sending the info to bw before the other player so you can edit that info in order to cheat. Which is why the two programs don't work in cohesion.
Essentially theres only 1 way they could make OCTGN 2.0 uncheatable and thats make it so where nobody could connect directly to each other but instead connect to a official OCTGN server. This would make using a cheat program like bw impossible. However the first OCTGN allowed direct connection and I see nothing indicating this won't either. Meaning in translation...its quite possible to use the open source code to script a cheat program. |
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NahHolmes
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Craze wrote: |
Being as closed source makes it impossible to program a cheat program to run along with the application would make me say that open source does indeed make it easier as it makes it possible.
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Wait, what? NO.
If you hosted the games on it you could read the output the game was sending back and forth to the other client and write a program to stifle the real output and send false output so that you would be able to for example, stack you library, and while the program is snedning, "PLAYER 1 searches his library, rearranges cards" and such the output would never reach the other player. Of course there are ways to program around this such as store the information of library order on both CPUs but that just opens another possibility where you could see opponents library with a cheat. As has been said before, YES open source makes it easier to hack. YES the only real way to make it cheat proof is careful coding and hosting all games on a dedicated server. NO it is not impossible to hack closed source software, people do it all the time on programs much more complicated then a free online card playing game. They should have it open source and host games on a server, then keep the server software closed source. |
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Craze
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5647
Location: Indiana, U
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| NahHolmes wrote: | | Craze wrote: |
Being as closed source makes it impossible to program a cheat program to run along with the application would make me say that open source does indeed make it easier as it makes it possible.
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Wait, what? NO.
If you hosted the games on it you could read the output the game was sending back and forth to the other client and write a program to stifle the real output and send false output so that you would be able to for example, stack you library, and while the program is snedning, "PLAYER 1 searches his library, rearranges cards" and such the output would never reach the other player. Of course there are ways to program around this such as store the information of library order on both CPUs but that just opens another possibility where you could see opponents library with a cheat. As has been said before, YES open source makes it easier to hack. YES the only real way to make it cheat proof is careful coding and hosting all games on a dedicated server. NO it is not impossible to hack closed source software, people do it all the time on programs much more complicated then a free online card playing game. They should have it open source and host games on a server, then keep the server software closed source. |
problem with scripting something to interact with closed software, especially tcg games, is the info the app sends out is encrypted and thus impossible to read if you don't have something to unencrypt it. Which essentially is why BW won't work on MWS, because BW can't read MWS's code.
I mean yes its possible to unencrypt it without seeing the original source code. But its not easy at all and most mtg players couldn't do it. |
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da_penguin
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| thats bc hackers have better things to do than play mtg and hack an online league. |
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Jorbes
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 309
Location: Netherland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| da_penguin wrote: | | thats bc hackers have better things to do than play mtg and hack an online league. |
actually, back in the early versions of mws, there was a key generator out there.., so you wouldnt have to pay, but yes, you're right about having better things to do |
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Craze
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5647
Location: Indiana, U
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| da_penguin wrote: | | thats bc hackers have better things to do than play mtg and hack an online league. |
ya don't have to be a hacker to invent a cheating program. You have to be a programmer. And no programmers have nothing better to do with their time.
Nor do hackers for that matter... |
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KeySam
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 619
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Actually theres still a crack for mws, that you dont need to pay(it doesnt open all functions). But since its open source maybe go can take some parts out of it. (i dont know what kind of licens this open source projekt has).
Just dont tell them, uh i didnt say that  |
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Craze
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5647
Location: Indiana, U
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think in the long run why MWS is a better prog is MWS is closed source. You can't get the code unencrypter from it thus can't build a cheat prog that can edit its code.
I'm not positive but being as ML worships GO so much, I assume GO will be closed source, but thats the catch 22. All closed source programs require they're programmers to continue to update them, and most of the programmers quit caring. Open source allows anyone to update but that means they can build cheat programs...
kinda the trade off eh? |
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da_penguin
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hackers/programmers are the same thing, programming is just their job hacking is what they do, you have to know programming to be a hacker, so tis the same thing you just dont go around telling people oh im a hacker but you can say im a programmer. |
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Craze
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5647
Location: Indiana, U
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| da_penguin wrote: | | hackers/programmers are the same thing, programming is just their job hacking is what they do, you have to know programming to be a hacker, so tis the same thing you just dont go around telling people oh im a hacker but you can say im a programmer. |
nowadays hackers are idiots who have no clue wtf they are doing and just pretend they could do something. To hack something you don't need to know how to program, all you need to know is how to read a program code. REAL hackers are guys hired by large companies to test security. Just because they have programs to steal IPs and know their way around basic code doesn't mean they could design a detailed program.
A programmer isn't a hacker, just because you can make your own program doesn't mean you can get access to another server. A programmer is essentially someone who creates a program. This could be a extremely basic one and that person would technically be called a programmer.
Programing and hacking aren't the same thing, both do require basic knowledge of a programming language. A really good hacker can totally suck at programming and a really genius programmer could have no clue about hacking.
Also creating a cheat program for a mtg application has NOTHING to do with hacking. Especially when that programs code is given to you. Now obtaining a closed source program's code can have something to do with hacking. But that of course is illegal... |
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