Maralen of the Mornsong

Martas · Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 25

This creature says "Players can't draw cards". Is it possible to dredge if this creature is in play? Thanks

lennin · Guest

in the words of mauro bongiovanni: what do you think the answer is?

CMA-Flippi · Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:53 am Post subject:

ok, that was wrong *edited*
Correct answer:

You cant replace (with Dredge) what doenst happen.

Maraalen of the Mornsong {1BB} |Legendary Creature -- Elf Wizard| 2/3. Players can't draw cards. / At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player loses 3 life, searches his or her library for a card, puts it into his or her hand, then shuffles his or her library.

Nere · Joined: 01 Sep 2004 Posts: 10

But there is no replacement effect with Maralen. My guess is you cant dredge with it in play since you cant draw in the first place.

trueeevil · Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 142

Dredge is an effect that you can use if you would draw a card. Since you cannot draw a card, you cannot dredge.

Martas · Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 25

Can anybody find proper rules for this interaction? I would like to be sure before building a deck with this card.

I expect that "players can't draw cards" is continous effect (according to rule 418.1 - effect affecting players and/or modifying game rules). But I didn't find too much in rules about interaction of continous effects with replacement effects like dredge. The main question is which applies first - "can't draw" or dredge?
Rule 419.1 says that replacement effects act like "shieds" around whatever they are affecting. Could this also mean that "players can't draw" effect looks at draw effect with "dredge shield" already applied? In such case dredging would be pretty OK.

CMA-Flippi - Similar situation is dredge vs. Plagiarize. Resolved Plagiarize means that your opponent can't draw any card but he is still able to dredge due to interaction of 2 replacement effects.

Thorns · Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Posts: 819 Location: Rath

Maralen's ability isn't a replacement effect, it's a static ability that prevents something from happening. The same way Moat stops creatures from attacking, Maralen stops players from drawing cards. If a creature can't attack, then Caltrops can't trigger. If players can't draw cards, Dredge can't see anything to replace.

-DK- · Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 28

yea, i think Maralen can find a spot in sbs for complete dredge hoser. that card alone destroys dredge if they havent killed u by the time u paly it.

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 271

Just to confirm, you've been getting the right answers. Maralen of the Mornsong does not have a replacement effect. She just has a static ability that says something can't happen anymore. There is no ordering or any choice in the matter. You can't draw cards, so you can't replace the not-happening draw either. If it would be a replacement effect it would be worded like Obstinate Familiar (probably without the 'may' but you get the picture).

LoneWulf · Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 142

From MTG Rules List for judges:

> What about maralen of the mornsong and tomorrow if players can't draw cards, does that mean they also can't replace draws?

I know some people try to avoid spoilers until the prerelease so I've let this idle for a few days to give them fair warning.

In any case... Tommorow's ability replaces draws, but Malaren says you can't draw. Similar to the above situation, if something never happens it can't be replaced so the replacement effect does nothing.

Key: Neither Malaren's ability nor the rules for Indestructable create replacement effects.. they just say the event can't happen. Conversely, two replacement effects could be "chained" on the same event (albeit, only once each... they don't loop)... check out CR419.9a for the details.

--Gavin Duggan, L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep

(Note: I'm not Gavin. Just a judge subscribed to that list.)