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Sower of Temptation


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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>NOOB!!11!
>PLAYER LOST
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aldaryn



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's all duh, but I have a question about Sower and Shapeshifter

I play a face up Shifter, copying a Sower, to get your Tarmogoyf. If I turn Shapeshifter face down, do I keep the Tarmogoyf? It didn't "leave play," but it's not Sower anymore. What happens?
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UntapUpkeep is wrong.
The duration of Sowers effect ends when the permanent that set it up leaves play. It doesnt end when Sower becomes flipped, tapped, turned face down or untapped etc...
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IberianWolf



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed, it's just like haunting a treetop village (if it goes to grave as a land, you still get the haunt effect)

by the way, turning a shifter face-up targetting the sower DOES NOT get you another creature. some people aren't quite clear on that.

and I agree that some dudes are just rude when concerning the rules. it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, you can just explain things calmly and have a good time. instead of doing something like "keep your rules! *log off*", try explaining them, use the judges. don't be an idiot.
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject, in Scion of Oona's text, does "Other fairie creatures" mean fairie creatures that aren't Scion of Oona, or fairie creatures that aren't this same Scion of Oona?

In other words, if I have two Scions, do they give each other shroud? Same goes for all those "affects others" abilities.

Gg nuances of the English language.
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ant900



Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2525
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorbadoc wrote:
On the subject, in Scion of Oona's text, does "Other fairie creatures" mean fairie creatures that aren't Scion of Oona, or fairie creatures that aren't this same Scion of Oona?

In other words, if I have two Scions, do they give each other shroud? Same goes for all those "affects others" abilities.

Gg nuances of the English language.

another scion is another faerie so it does have shroud.
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: I play Sower of temptation, the CIP ability goes on stack targeting my opponent's tarmogoyf.
Now, what happens if i play momentary blink on my Sower with the CIP ability still on stack? Am i allowed to get the goyf plus another creature?
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

umm ... you dont lose goyf. "this" stamps dont erase just because a card is facedown. shapesifter coming into play copying sower is great because u steal a guy and then turn him facedown and u are ready to rock n roll
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Laonis_Taere



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EMA wrote:
Question: I play Sower of temptation, the CIP ability goes on stack targeting my opponent's tarmogoyf.
Now, what happens if i play momentary blink on my Sower with the CIP ability still on stack? Am i allowed to get the goyf plus another creature?


Well, the answer is no, but I'm not completely sure if I'm explaining why correctly.

I think, because the Sower has an "as long as" clause (unlike the faceless butcher triggered ability) when the CIP ability resolves, the Sower is no longer the same object it was. Thus, you can target a new creature with the new CIP ability, but the old one never works because the "original" sower is not in play anymore.
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shadow483



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok here's my question. my opponent steals my tarmogoyf with sower. I then play a sower to steal it back. Then He plays another sower and takes it back again. If his second sower dies who gets the goyf?
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

each sower has a stamp on it saying what it took... whenever a sower leaves play appropriate switches must be made.

the tricksy thing is when my sowr takes your tarm. then your sower takes the same tarm. then our sowers fight in combat and both die... who gets the tarmagoyf depends on who active player is and shenanigans like that. generally u can expect tarmagoyf to go back to owner but there's some weird interactions
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Laonis_Taere



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadow483 wrote:
Ok here's my question. my opponent steals my tarmogoyf with sower. I then play a sower to steal it back. Then He plays another sower and takes it back again. If his second sower dies who gets the goyf?


With just the two sowers in play and yours with the later timestamp, I would think that you get the tarmogoyf back.
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the matter of mimicking a Sower, if I understand the situation, the rules of the game trump what the text on the card says (a weak case could be made that this violates the first rule of Magic, but that's neither here nor there). "Sower of Temptation" in the card text doesn't actually mean "Sower of Temptation". If it did, ANY Sower would maintain the charm; I could cast my Sower, charm your Sower, and I'd keep your Sower even if you incinerated mine because there'd still be an instance of "Sower of Temptation" on the playing field.

"Sower of Temptation" in the text of a permanent called "Sower of Temptation" actually means "This particular instance of a permanent". It's a screwy, convoluted rule. If WOTC wanted card texts to be clearer, they'd have keywords this card and this permanent. Instead, WOTC (apparently) figures that it looks cool to have cards refer to themselves in the third person. I think this is why Grandeur abilities say "... another card named ~whatever~"; it sounds redundant, but it's necessary in the context of the screwy nomenclature Magic cards use for referring to themselves.

Note that Momentary Blink effectively recasts the permanent. It's the same physical card, but as far as the game is concerned, the old permanent is gone and replaced with a new permanent.

To answer Shadow's question, I think the rules say that when effects contradict, the one that executed most recently takes precedence. So if you're going to zap one of his Sowers, zap the second one.

Conkisstador wrote:
...who gets the tarmagoyf depends on who active player is and shenanigans like that...

Really? I wouldn't think it ever mattered who was active. Can you give an example?
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EMA wrote:
Question: I play Sower of Temptation, the CIP ability goes on stack targeting my opponent's tarmogoyf.
Now, what happens if i play momentary blink on my Sower with the CIP ability still on stack? Am i allowed to get the goyf plus another creature?

Sower of Temptation. No, you never get the Tarmogoyf in the first place.

The duration of the take control effect is 'as long as ~this~ remains in play' since the duration ended before the effect started the effect never happens. That is governed by the following rule:

418.3d Some effects from activated or triggered abilities have durations worded “as long as . . . .” If the “as long as” duration ends between the end of playing the activated ability or putting the triggered ability onto the stack and the moment when the effect would first be applied, the effect does nothing. It doesn’t start and immediately stop again, and it doesn’t last forever.
Example: Endoskeleton is an artifact with an activated ability that reads “{2}, {T}: Target creature gets +0/+3 as long as Endoskeleton remains tapped.” If you play this ability and then Endoskeleton becomes untapped before the ability resolves, it does nothing, because its duration—remaining tapped—was over before the effect began.

shadow483 wrote:
Ok here's my question. my opponent steals my tarmogoyf with sower. I then play a sower to steal it back. Then He plays another sower and takes it back again. If his second sower dies who gets the goyf?

It doesn't matter whose turn it is, it doesn't matter who does the destroying, it is in fact completely independent of anything else.

Control changing effects are like layers of paint. A creature comes into play with a 'base layer' and every control changing effect 'paints' a new layer on top of that. Whoever painted the top layer 'gets' the creature. Basically the Tarmogoyf would have four layers of paint:

-Top-
Control effect player 2 (from Sower3)
Control effect player 1 (from Sower2)
Control effect player 2 (from Sower1)
Base layer player 1 (the player who played it)
-Bottom-

It doesn't matter what happens to Sower 1 or Sower 2, if they leave play, nothing noticeable happens. Their 'layer' would disappear in between, but the 'top layer' would still be the control effect from player 2, so player 2 would still control the Tarmogoyf.

Only if Sower3 leaves play will something noticeable happen. The 'top layer' would vanish and the next layer would be on top. So control reverts to player 1.

If for instance Sower3 and Sower2 leave play at the same time (one blocks the other for instance) the top two layers would disappear simultaneously and control would not change. Player 2 would still control the Tarmo, but now because of the effect of Sower1.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

active player will come into play if theres multiple cards in paly affecting control. persuasion, sower, take possession... balancing each other out = very complicated when the wrong things die.

at the root of it is killing your own control effect while they have taken it with a "while this is in play, when it leaves, return it" effect. then when u kill their guy u get a card owned by them. odd and rare. thankfully Smile
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