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Char + Honorable Passage


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Magx



Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 452

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why didn't you called a judge on this ?
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plowman



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honorable Passage deals damage equal to the damage prevented this way to the source's controller. that's him, he just does 6 to himself.
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aldaryn



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not right. The 4 damage to the poster still happens, passage only prevents the damage done to the player targeted (the opponent).

But, the honorable passage, would resolve first, but only it's prevention ability at this point. Char resolves, the damage to him is prevented, but he still takes 2 to himself because it was the same amount, and I believe this all resolves at once, and you draw...

Either way, read the cards, he DOES NOT take six....
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plowman



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops i misread the post, i thought he chared himself
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FlyingFreak



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When he chars you, it's isn't 2-1 for you ... you just play a new game ...
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, he wasted an honorable passage. When Passage resolves, it sets up a prevention effect which deals the damage as part of the prevention. Char then resolves, dealing you 4, while the 2 dealt to him from Char is prevented, only to have Passage deal it anyway.

Also, he would not lose the match as games which end in draws don't count towards your match score. When the game ends, it's still 1-0 you.
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kobisjeruk



Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I understand the poster's dilemma here...

It's all about the timing right?

Honorable Passage create a prevention shield that triggered off of a source dealing damage, kinda like Healing Salve. It does not put another effect on the stack in a sense of First In Last Out. It replace the spell effect (preventing it) and at the same time dealing damage to the source controller if its red.

To put it simply, niknight is right, he just wasted an Honorable Passage since the prevented damage would be dealt back to him since it's from a red source and he is the controller. It a draw either he prevents it or not.

To those who are confused about char target, it create two target at the same time (notice the use of 'and' and not 'and then'). If char was worded
"Char deals 4 damage to target creature or player
a) and then it 2 damage to you." or
b) .(punctuation) It deals 2 damage to you."

then you will lose because of the timing.

p/s: obv i'm not a judge since i did not insert the funky Rules x.x.x.a subsection xb quote...but this is about right...i think... ^_^
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BusDriver



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that if for example u char a creature, but that creature leaves the game before char resolves that you do not get the 2 dmg anymore because the spell loses it's target (same for helix with the lofegain)
Wouldn't that mean there is only 1 target
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honorable Passage, Char.

Honorable Passage sets up a prevention shield that prevents the damage of one source to one target. He chooses the source to be the Char and to prevent the damage it would deal to him.

Therefor the four damage he deals to you is untouched, that's not in the picture at all (and no, BusDriver, that has nothing to do with illegal targets, does not somehow make you an illegal target and does not counter the Char).

What is in the picture is the two damage he'll deal himself. Prevention effects are immediate and there is no delay. Neither is there a delay in the damage it deals to the controller of the red source. So all that happens is that Honorable Passage prevents the two damage to him from Char and then deals two damage to him itself, simultaneously to the four damage Char deal to you.

All damage is still dealt simultaneously and both players die at the same time, resulting in a draw.

Note that this not mean you win. It makes the score 1-0-1 (one game won by you and one game a draw). You have to play a new game, still trying to get to two games won.
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st4x



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 358

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its first to 2 game wins wins the match no matter if theyres a draw you keep playing until someone wins two games
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kby



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiquring he points the char at your, the card's ability is replaced a little and becomes:

Deal 4 damage to target player. Blah blah we know that, so you will take 4.

He prevents the other 2, and since its a red source, it then adds 2 damage to him as well(fiquring he passaged himself)

Basically char doesn't change at all... and resolves basically as it was ment to.

so yes, it ends in a draw. Lots of draws w/ char/psi blast...
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Draws never end a match. Nobody wins when you draw, so you can never end a match with a draw. If it's 1-1, it'll now be 1-1-1 and you play on and a player still needs to win a second game. If it was 0-0, it is now 0-0-1 and a player still needs to win two games, etc.
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LONE_GUNMAN



Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahaha he killed you with char/ honorable passage

Explanation: honorable passage put a trigger on the stack to deal damage to himself = to damgage on himself, but the trigger buys him time to live while you die...HAHAHAHA. funny. Best play ever!

and if a draw takes place on 1-0, it would go 1-0-1, winner is first to 2 wins(best out of 3 is technically wrong in this case)
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LONE_GUNMAN



Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for you rules lawyers out there, it doesnt say 'instead' or'redirect', so it makes a trigger after prevention, to see if the damage WAS prevented, then it decides the honorable passage deal damage, it is probably the best play i have ever heard of in T2 with ravinca legal
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't use the words at, when or whenever and is therefor not a triggered ability.

It's one big prevention effect (which works quite similar to a replacement effect) with something extra thrown in.

The answers provided were right.
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