Char + Honorable Passage

RavagerPeru · Joined: 07 May 2007 Posts: 8

This happened to me during a match on the last regionals......

Opponent at 2 life.

Me at 1 life.

It's his turn and he knows he is about to lose next turn due to lots of white creatures attacking him (Score is 1 - 0 favoring me so far, so if he decides to char me then we draw the current game and thus he loses the entire match 2 - 1) so he decides to make this play unsure if it would work: He plays Char targeting me and then he responds to it by playing Honorable Passage targeting himself and choosing his own Char as the source.

Now the question is:

Do we still draw the current game because even when he prevents the 2 damage of char it's still a red source so it will do 2 damage to him anyway??

Or do I lose because I receive the 4 damage before he gets the 2 damage from the Passage?

Or do I win because the 2 damage prevented and then redirected by the Passage is triggered first?

Hope you guys know better about stack, delayed abilities and prevention since I don't know what happens here

CHAR
Char deals 4 damage to target creature or player and 2 damage to you.

HONORABLE PASSAGE
The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to target creature or player this turn, prevent that damage. If damage from a red source is prevented this way, Honorable Passage deals damage equal to the damage prevented this way to the source's controller.

Magx · Joined: 07 Sep 2004 Posts: 339

why didn't you called a judge on this ?

RavagerPeru · Joined: 07 May 2007 Posts: 8

That's why I'm asking here where I hope I can get the attention of some higher level judges browsing these forums...

To answer your question the Judge Ruled we still tie the game but there was some debate among players that know the rules. Some said I lose some others I win and also those who agreed with the judge that we still tied.

By the way the Judge is a Lvl 1 so that's why I'm unsure since in previous tournaments it was later found out he ruled wrong in some controversial stuff

plowman · Joined: 01 Sep 2004 Posts: 9

Honorable Passage deals damage equal to the damage prevented this way to the source's controller. that's him, he just does 6 to himself.

aldaryn · Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 439

That's not right. The 4 damage to the poster still happens, passage only prevents the damage done to the player targeted (the opponent).

But, the honorable passage, would resolve first, but only it's prevention ability at this point. Char resolves, the damage to him is prevented, but he still takes 2 to himself because it was the same amount, and I believe this all resolves at once, and you draw...

Either way, read the cards, he DOES NOT take six....

plowman · Joined: 01 Sep 2004 Posts: 9

oops i misread the post, i thought he chared himself

FlyingFreak · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 157 Location: Belgium

When he chars you, it's isn't 2-1 for you ... you just play a new game ...

niknight · Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 144

Basically, he wasted an honorable passage. When Passage resolves, it sets up a prevention effect which deals the damage as part of the prevention. Char then resolves, dealing you 4, while the 2 dealt to him from Char is prevented, only to have Passage deal it anyway.

Also, he would not lose the match as games which end in draws don't count towards your match score. When the game ends, it's still 1-0 you.

kobisjeruk · Joined: 04 Jun 2007 Posts: 44

I think I understand the poster's dilemma here...

It's all about the timing right?

Honorable Passage create a prevention shield that triggered off of a source dealing damage, kinda like Healing Salve. It does not put another effect on the stack in a sense of First In Last Out. It replace the spell effect (preventing it) and at the same time dealing damage to the source controller if its red.

To put it simply, niknight is right, he just wasted an Honorable Passage since the prevented damage would be dealt back to him since it's from a red source and he is the controller. It a draw either he prevents it or not.

To those who are confused about char target, it create two target at the same time (notice the use of 'and' and not 'and then'). If char was worded
"Char deals 4 damage to target creature or player
a) and then it 2 damage to you." or
b) .(punctuation) It deals 2 damage to you."

then you will lose because of the timing.

p/s: obv i'm not a judge since i did not insert the funky Rules x.x.x.a subsection xb quote...but this is about right...i think... ^_^

BusDriver · Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 132

I believe that if for example u char a creature, but that creature leaves the game before char resolves that you do not get the 2 dmg anymore because the spell loses it's target (same for helix with the lofegain)
Wouldn't that mean there is only 1 target

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 271

Honorable Passage, Char.

Honorable Passage sets up a prevention shield that prevents the damage of one source to one target. He chooses the source to be the Char and to prevent the damage it would deal to him.

Therefor the four damage he deals to you is untouched, that's not in the picture at all (and no, BusDriver, that has nothing to do with illegal targets, does not somehow make you an illegal target and does not counter the Char).

What is in the picture is the two damage he'll deal himself. Prevention effects are immediate and there is no delay. Neither is there a delay in the damage it deals to the controller of the red source. So all that happens is that Honorable Passage prevents the two damage to him from Char and then deals two damage to him itself, simultaneously to the four damage Char deal to you.

All damage is still dealt simultaneously and both players die at the same time, resulting in a draw.

Note that this not mean you win. It makes the score 1-0-1 (one game won by you and one game a draw). You have to play a new game, still trying to get to two games won.

RavagerPeru · Joined: 07 May 2007 Posts: 8

So the game ends in a draw.... Thanks.

So what about the match??

If I was at 1-0 before this play what's the new score now? 2-1 or 1-0-1?

What would have happened if we were at 1-1 each before the last play?? Would it end the whole match with a score of 1-1-1 or would we have to play another game to see which one gets 2 games won.

And if we were playing the first match of the game (0-0) after that play I believe the score would be 0-0-1 right??? or 1-1-0?? so do we need to play still two more games or just one more?

Editing this post:
Also if it happens to be an extra game after a draw. Which player decided whether to play first or draw first...

st4x · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 358

its first to 2 game wins wins the match no matter if theyres a draw you keep playing until someone wins two games

kby · Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 144

fiquring he points the char at your, the card's ability is replaced a little and becomes:

Deal 4 damage to target player. Blah blah we know that, so you will take 4.

He prevents the other 2, and since its a red source, it then adds 2 damage to him as well(fiquring he passaged himself)

Basically char doesn't change at all... and resolves basically as it was ment to.

so yes, it ends in a draw. Lots of draws w/ char/psi blast...

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 271

Draws never end a match. Nobody wins when you draw, so you can never end a match with a draw. If it's 1-1, it'll now be 1-1-1 and you play on and a player still needs to win a second game. If it was 0-0, it is now 0-0-1 and a player still needs to win two games, etc.